Diana Alt [00:00:04]:
Hey, Diana Alt here. And this is Work Should Feel Good, the podcast where your career growth meets your real life. Each week I share stories, strategies and mindset shifts to help you build a work life that works for you on your terms. Hello, hello, hello everyone, and welcome to Work Should Feel Good, the podcast where your career growth meets your real life. I'm your host, Diana Ault and today my guest Mike Kim and I are going to geek out about how taking charge of your personal brand can elevate your career at work and across your industry. Mike is somebody I followed for a very, very long time. He's a brand strategist for business thought leaders, coaches and authors who want to create impact with their ideas and get their message heard. He's got a really interesting and unique ability to help people communicate their brand clearly and land on big stages and in big publications while being authentic but not in the gross like Instagram influencer authentic kind of way, like actual authenticity.

Diana Alt [00:01:14]:
I was telling him right before I started to hit record that his first. Was this your first book?

Mike Kim [00:01:21]:
Yeah, yeah.

Diana Alt [00:01:22]:
First his book you Are the Brand, which we're going to talk about a little bit, along with his new book, is one of the top three most gifted and recommended books that I've had in the last few years. It's a really excellent primer on what branding is and how you can bring it to life practically. Wall Street Journal and USA Today best selling book for your Are the Brand. And his most recent book, co authored with Andy Storch, who was on episode four of this show, is an Amazon. I don't have a hard copy yet. I'm holding out for a signed one, but it's.

Mike Kim [00:01:51]:
Oh, I'll send you one.

Diana Alt [00:01:52]:
Yeah, that would be awesome. This one is signed. I have it. I have a specific page even that we'll talk about at some point probably. But yeah, he released that with his co author andy Storch in 2025. You guys are Amazon bestsellers as well. So you know how to write a book and build a brand and build a brand around a book and all the things so.

Mike Kim [00:02:16]:
Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you. I will take all of that as a compliment.

Diana Alt [00:02:21]:
Yeah, well, it is meant as a compliment.

Mike Kim [00:02:23]:
So yeah, I should probably do well with these things if I'm claiming to teach people how to do it. But you know, that's an angle of authenticity for you. You know, just do what you say you've done and help other people do it, you know.

Diana Alt [00:02:39]:
So yeah, I think owning who you are is such a big Part of this, because how can you possibly own your brand, own your career if you. Or be a brand if you don't? If you're unwilling to own who you are, including weird stuff that you've done to a certain degree. You don't have to tell everybody all the weird stuff. But this morning, I got a very fun email from you that said. It was said Andy and Mike was your first username as embarrassing as ours. So that was a very early branding thing for you and for all. All the elder millennials and whatnot. So talk to us about your first username.

Mike Kim [00:03:22]:
I was in college when I'm dating myself here, so I was in college when America Online was mailing out those CDs.

Diana Alt [00:03:32]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [00:03:33]:
And they give you, like, three hours of online time per CD. You load it up. It's that horrible. Keep, like, modem. Telephone modem.

Diana Alt [00:03:43]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [00:03:44]:
And all my friends were going on aim, AOL Instant messenger, which is basically the precursor to dms.

Diana Alt [00:03:52]:
Yes. On every social app, which I weirdly never really used. I'm a little. I think I'm a couple years older than you. And my first, like, email and Internet experiences were in college where I used my name because I was trying to be anonymous.

Mike Kim [00:04:06]:
Yeah. I sent my first email ever my freshman year of college. And I remember sitting both there when I had to email and create my own email username at my school. And then with Instant messenger, and all my friends were on Instant messenger, like, you got to get this. You got to get online. And this is where everybody, quote unquote, was hanging out. It was the it thing to do. And I remember booting that thing up.

Mike Kim [00:04:30]:
And I was like, frozen. I was like, what? What A screen name. Oh, my God. And I just sat there probably for a half hour. What am I gonna like? Mike Kim is too common even back then. Not gonna get it. And so I just went through, like, what do I like to do? Do I use just Mike in my birthday? That's so dumb. You know, and all these things.

Mike Kim [00:04:51]:
And it strikes me that even then, which is the first time that I can recollect having some sort of online identity. I was worried about how it would come across to other people. Yeah. And. Yeah. So I created this username because I eventually wanted to just get online. And I was like, this is going to be great. It's going to sound very cool.

Mike Kim [00:05:13]:
It's going to be very clever. I'll play off my name. All the girls will dig it. And I used the screen name Mikovich. M I K O V. I T C H. Everyone stopped laughing and my friends totally railed me on it. They're like, dude, you sound like you're Russian.

Mike Kim [00:05:31]:
What is the greetings come ever? Like? We would hang out, play basketball, the greetings come, and we would make fun of each other based on our screen names.

Diana Alt [00:05:38]:
Yes. For those of you who are listening and not watching, Mike, you are of Korean origin, so that doesn't matter. Like, what they were saying doesn't even match at all. So.

Mike Kim [00:05:53]:
So then there's this girl who I liked and she knew I liked her and she's like, oh, I got a new screen name for you. I was like, what? What's that? Like Michael. I was like, yo, that. That was cold.

Diana Alt [00:06:04]:
That.

Mike Kim [00:06:04]:
Wow, that hurt. So, you know, there you go, all in one week. You create an identity. You get made fun of by your friends, you think it's gonna be cool. You get made fun of by your friends and the girl you like throws it right back in your face. And all that to say, the world hasn't changed that much. Diana, all these years later, we're still trying to look good online. You mentioned influencers and all that.

Mike Kim [00:06:29]:
I have strong opinions about them. And it's weird. Doesn't matter whether you're decking out your LinkedIn profile or doing a podcast or speaking on stage. We all want to look good. We all want to present the best version of ourselves. And that's essentially branding. It's just an identity, public facing identity that you use.

Diana Alt [00:06:48]:
I also look at it as, like, when you have a well developed brand, people know how to talk about you when you're not in the room, which is something a lot of people really struggle with. Because in my case I'm working a lot on career transitions and development and job searches. For people who are leaders in tech, they're number one, highly analytical. So most of them hate marketing. I have to. I often have to talk about the thing without talking about the thing to get them to make progress in this area. And then they also don't necessarily want to be talked about. Like, a lot of them have still bought into that whole.

Diana Alt [00:07:25]:
Your good work should speak for yourself. If you work hard, you're going to be recognized. Spoiler alert to everybody listening. That's. It's not actually a thing. But let. Let's go to another thing that I think I've heard you talk about. Mikechem.com is a domain you have now, but you didn't always have that domain, did you? Wasn't there like a LSAC instructor or Legal instructor or something that have that.

Mike Kim [00:07:50]:
Yeah, so this is right when I was side hustling around probably 2014 or 2015. So, you know, over 10 years ago. And my Kim is a very common last name in Korean culture. It's like Williams or Smith. And the idea of getting Mike Kim anything was going to be pretty tough, but no one was using that domain, so I couldn't figure out who had it because I was a newbie at all this stuff. So in the beginning, I bought MikeKim TV. That was my website domain, even though I didn't do any video or tv. And I was like, this is just what I have.

Mike Kim [00:08:32]:
I'm just going to execute on this and this is where I'll build. And I made all my screen names Mike Kim tv because getting Mike Kim was impossible. Then after a while, I looked into these domains and I realized you can hire some brokers to chase down whoever owns it. And they had me name my price. And it was kind of an auction base. And they clearly were just waiting for me to drive up my own price. So at first I pitched two grand, and they're like, oh, we can't find the guy five grand. All of a sudden they found him 7, 500.

Mike Kim [00:09:01]:
They're like, oh, well, he's kind of rejected it. And I don't know if that's true or not.

Diana Alt [00:09:05]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [00:09:05]:
And eventually I said, all right, I'll pay $10,000. I'm not going over that because I've already built out my platform on mikeem tv. I clearly don't need the dot com.

Diana Alt [00:09:16]:
Right.

Mike Kim [00:09:17]:
But I would like to have it. And I pitched 10 crayon. They said, okay. The guy said he'll sell it. And it was a 15 commission fee to the broker. So I paid $11,500 for Mike Kim dot com. And I think maybe about three years ago I was able to get the Instagram handle ikekim, and that's the only one that I have Mike Kim for.

Diana Alt [00:09:41]:
Oh, fantastic.

Mike Kim [00:09:42]:
Yeah, it was a dormant handle. And I had some people on the inside at Meta that knew how to do that. And they're like, yeah, we'll flag them and if they don't respond, we can just give you this domain because it's technically a dormant handle. So I got that. All that said, I have over the years gotten occasional DMs, especially on Instagram, from people saying, hey, I bought your LSAT book. I'm taking my bar exam a couple weeks. I was wondering about this one question that you had. And I, I was like, this is so funny.

Diana Alt [00:10:12]:
So you're like, I can help you brand your law practice after you pass the bar.

Mike Kim [00:10:17]:
Yeah. But they probably. I could see why they thought I was the same person, because it was like, that guy's not very visible online. At least he's not, you know, visual. And I write books on this. Why not write books on that? Maybe it was something I pivoted out of. Who knows?

Diana Alt [00:10:31]:
Right.

Mike Kim [00:10:32]:
So I would warm up a little bit to those messages instead of just ignoring them. I would just say, hey, good luck on your LSAT rooting for you. It's the different Mike Kim. My bad. But hey, if you ever go to law school or start your own practice and you need some help in marketing, I can send you some resources.

Diana Alt [00:10:48]:
That's fantastic. I knew I heard you talk about that somewhere. And I think it's really important because there are a lot of people that have common names. For me, my name is not common, but it is common enough that when I was doing the custom URL thing on LinkedIn, I couldn't get Diana Alt, so I had to get. I have the. I think it's. It's either Diana K alt with my middle initial or the Diana Alt. Like, I've been kind of working through that.

Diana Alt [00:11:17]:
The middle initial caused all kinds of problems because the way search. Search is better on LinkedIn than it used to be. But it used to be people couldn't find me because I had the K listed. I was Diana k. Alt on LinkedIn and it would choke. So. But, yeah, this whole thing of, like, can people even know your name Is a big deal, but it's definitely not all that there is to branding. I would like to go in the Wayback Machine, though, because one of the things I talk about on this show a little bit is how people got to where they are.

Diana Alt [00:11:49]:
And you very definitely did not start out as a marketer. So can you give just like, a little bit of your wandering path of how you went from your early career into marketing?

Mike Kim [00:12:02]:
Yeah, so my early career, right out of high school, I went to college because that's just what Asian kids do.

Diana Alt [00:12:09]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [00:12:09]:
Like, I always thought that that was totally normal because that's what my parents had told me and my culture taught me. I grew up in New Jersey. I'm back here now. And when I was in high school, for a short time, I wanted to become a comic book artist. I was pretty good at it. And my mom was like, absolutely not. Because she was very religious at the time. So she started taking my sister and I To church.

Mike Kim [00:12:32]:
And that's where I met more people who looked like me. You know, my town was very Jewish, and I was one of maybe eight Asian kids in my whole town. And we go to church and I meet all these other Korean kids. And, you know, there's a lot of other shared interests. So that was cool. And I cannot overstate the influence that church had on my life, not just from how you see the world, but from a social aspect. This is where I found people that I felt like I belonged with, got along with, understood all our cultural nuances, what it's like to grow up with parents like ours, all that stuff. And that's where I started to hone a lot of experiences as a kid, as a teenager, leadership, getting involved, doing the music team thing, which I ended up being really good at.

Mike Kim [00:13:20]:
And in that, I was recruiting kids to play on our music team. I was putting together programming, I was quote, unquote, performing, you know, looking at it from that angle. And there was a lot there that I can trace back now in my career. I learned how to create content back then. I learned how to be a presenter. I learned how to be in front of an audience and not get uncomfortable. These are all really valuable experiences. Yeah, I was in that until my early 30s.

Diana Alt [00:13:50]:
Oh, wow.

Mike Kim [00:13:51]:
Yeah. So that was a long time.

Diana Alt [00:13:53]:
That was a very long time.

Mike Kim [00:13:54]:
Yeah. I worked at a church in Connecticut, a predominantly Caucasian church. I made it multicultural. We recorded albums. I put together conferences and events. So I want to rabbit trail for.

Diana Alt [00:14:06]:
One second, like, as a musician, what were your instruments or disciplines? Like, are you a vocalist, guitar player? Well, there's a guitar in the. Behind you. Clearly, that's part of it.

Mike Kim [00:14:17]:
Yeah. So I grew up playing piano, as many Korean kids do. That was my main instrument. I lost track of playing because we couldn't afford lessons anymore, But I just had a knack for it. My mom's side of the family is very, very musical. She was artistic. But all my aunts and uncles on her side of the family, including my mom's, my maternal grandfather, they were all musicians.

Diana Alt [00:14:43]:
Okay.

Mike Kim [00:14:43]:
So I clearly inherited something from that side of the family. And then I picked up guitar my senior year in high school, self taught. Then I started doing more vocals. We would write songs for the church. And so I had my hand. I was just neck deep in a lot of creative disciplines, if I really look at it that way. And you can see the connection now between all of that and what you and I, what you're doing now. Speakers, authors, writers.

Mike Kim [00:15:11]:
Yeah, yeah.

Diana Alt [00:15:12]:
And my Background's I did a lot of music as a kid too. So my mom came from a musical family. She started playing piano when she was a little bitty tiny thing and she's 82 years old and still plays the piano and directs like the half a dozen people in the tiny church choir, which like 10 years ago I was like, why are you still doing this? Be retired. And now I'm like, you're 82 and it keeps you going. So do whatever you want, lady. Have a good time. Yeah, I was mostly a vocalist. I have a piano.

Diana Alt [00:15:44]:
I never got very good at piano and I just got called out by someone that came to clean my dryer ducks today. Like do you play your piano often? No, I'm embarrassed to say. I was in all state choir though, like vocal music was my thing in high school, so I was very much in that. And I thought when I was a junior in high school that I was going to be like a high school choir teacher. And by the time I hit my senior year I decided to major in engineering because I also had a whole STEM analytical side. Went into a 20 year tech career and now I'm coaching people in that. So. But anyway, this is about you, not me.

Diana Alt [00:16:22]:
Sorry about that.

Mike Kim [00:16:23]:
It's just. But life has been a rabbit trail.

Diana Alt [00:16:25]:
Tell me a little bit more about. So you're, you're in your early 30s, you are still doing church music, building things and developing these creative skills. At what point did you make this jump into being the marketer that I tend to think of you as?

Mike Kim [00:16:42]:
Yeah, so there was a concurrent narrative at the time. So while I was doing a lot of church stuff, I had to get a part time job. Because you don't make money working at a church.

Diana Alt [00:16:54]:
No, no.

Mike Kim [00:16:55]:
And this was in my 20s, so I took that full time position at that church in. It was in Connecticut when I was 30 years old. So there's a big gap between high school and 30 years old.

Diana Alt [00:17:07]:
Yes.

Mike Kim [00:17:08]:
And I was involved at the church I grew up in. I was helping out there a lot, volunteering a lot. And they were pushing me to get involved more formally in ministry and that was not something I really wanted to do. I just wanted to do the music stuff. I'm not in the business of teaching people how to live their life or whatnot, but I was good at it. I was a good speaker, I was good at formulating these ideas and so they wanted me to at least take a couple of classes. After I graduated college, I graduated with a degree in American studies from Rutgers Here in New Jersey, which is essentially a degree for people who can't figure out what they want to major in. It was very humanitarian, humanities based.

Diana Alt [00:17:51]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [00:17:51]:
And underrated.

Diana Alt [00:17:53]:
As a person that got two STEM degrees. Underrated.

Mike Kim [00:17:58]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:17:58]:
Now I spend all my time learning from people that don't have college degrees and have degrees and things like American Studies.

Mike Kim [00:18:04]:
So looks like I made a couple of right decisions, albeit not intentionally. But during that time, I needed to make some money. I was in my 20s, I needed to figure out how to make money, and I found that I was good at teaching. So I got a job at an after school academy where they don't require degrees. You're basically teaching kids to get ready for their college entrance exams, like the sat.

Diana Alt [00:18:31]:
Like, is it like a Kuman?

Mike Kim [00:18:33]:
Yeah, but way higher level. Like much more personalized. And that's very popular where I live because it's such an educationally driven part of the country here. Like, everyone's trying to get into these Ivy League schools and you have all this pressure. That's also very Asian.

Diana Alt [00:18:48]:
So I got a job, South Asians in Kansas City. And so that culture runs pretty hard too. I'm in the middle of one of the top four or five most affluent school districts in the whole Casey metro area. So I see a lot.

Mike Kim [00:19:02]:
Yeah, yeah. So that, that's what I did. And I built a good relationship with the people there. When I went, I got married and left and moved to Connecticut and took that job at the church. When I resigned and came back to New Jersey, my old boss from that after school academy reached out and said, hey, I saw on Facebook you're back in town. Are you interested in teaching some classes? I said, no, I don't want to. I didn't really know what I was going to do in my life at that point, but I thought to myself, it might be good to teach a few classes because I want to use my brain again. To be really honest, you don't use your brain a lot when you're working at a church doing music.

Mike Kim [00:19:43]:
So I was like, okay, maybe this will be good for me to actually read these different types of materials and teach. And by chance, and I share this story in my first book, you are the Brand. I was walking out of work one day and she just asked me to look at an ad that they created. Hey, what do you think about this? I was like, this is terrible. You need to fix this, this. And I didn't realize I knew so much about marketing. And I knew about it because of what I did. At church I was promoting albums, promoting conferences.

Mike Kim [00:20:12]:
I had a lot of creative, like when you do projects like that, as you know when you're doing music, there's a huge element of marketing involved.

Diana Alt [00:20:19]:
Yeah. So she, that part passed me by because when I was not a composer, I was doing a lot of more like in school, like more choral stuff. I was like in the show choir, but I would, I didn't have like the composer bug. We didn't in the tiny United Methodist and Presbyterian churches that I attended in small town Missouri didn't do that kind of thing. So marketing passed me by until college probably when I started being involved in student activities and promoting the sorority and the student government and this and that. So you're lucky that you got it in that context because I did not get that out of music.

Mike Kim [00:21:02]:
Yeah, yeah, it was, it was just one of those. Well, it was a full time position and I was always working on creative projects, things that I wanted to do. And I realized that I learned a lot about it. And she being the fact that she knew me since she, I was in my 20s, she said, hey, have a seat. What would it take for you to take over all of our marketing? Like, are you willing to work here full time? And she just like, there's a lot of trust. But she could also see I was really good at it. I intrinsically understood their business. And she's like, name your price, I'll talk it over.

Mike Kim [00:21:35]:
With other leadership. I think this could work out. And that's how I got the job. So it locked me in. This was, you know, an immediate six figure a year job. And I was now, yeah, headlong in marketing, learning as I went, but getting by and actually growing because of what I intuitively knew. And then as I studied marketing, reading the classics, taking some courses, understanding what I was really good at, which was direct response, copywriting. I'd always been a good writer, not good at math, to the chagrin of my Asian parents.

Mike Kim [00:22:17]:
And that's sort of how it evolved. And then we turned the company around like they were doing okay, but they really multiplied the revenue when I took over the marketing for a couple years. But about a year and a half in, I knew that it wasn't somewhere I was going to stay forever. You know, I was getting to my later 30s and I really wanted to travel. I wanted to call my own shots, I wanted to have my own business or at least make money in a different way. And then I discovered Internet marketing and I discovered that I had skills that could really help a Lot of different people. And I was good at teaching and I just had to learn these aspects of digital online marketing and presence. But I understood branding and I understood copywriting and I understood people because I've been at church and I was a musician.

Diana Alt [00:23:07]:
I think that's really what you understand. Like when I think about. Because I've listened to your podcast for a while. Mike has a podcast. It's been. You've rebranded your podcast. It's called Brand you Now, right?

Mike Kim [00:23:18]:
Yep.

Diana Alt [00:23:20]:
And you've done that a few times. We might get into that. But it's it, it shows how much you know people instead of the shiny objects that people focus on. And I'm all for marketing automation. So people can spend their time on their strategy and not worry about like what email is going out because it's already set up. But fundamentally you have to understand people in order to make any of this stuff work, which is really what personal branding is about. To me. It is about being a person that is trying to have a presence and showcase expertise that draws in other people.

Diana Alt [00:24:00]:
Like that to me is what it is.

Mike Kim [00:24:03]:
Yeah. When I was trying to explain. Yeah. When I was been trying to explain personal branding to my clients or my audience, what I settled on was it is a public facing identity comprised of your ideas, your expertise, your reputation and your personality. And that's it. It's not everything of who you are. It is not the totality of who you are. This.

Mike Kim [00:24:29]:
I'm sure you get pushback from your clients. Diana, on this. Like, well, that's not totally who I am. Yeah, we're never totally who we are.

Diana Alt [00:24:37]:
Totally who we are with anybody. We're not even totally who we are with our spouse. Like the way.

Mike Kim [00:24:41]:
Exactly.

Diana Alt [00:24:42]:
The way you act with your spouse and the way you act with your mom and your best friend are different. Like, why would it be any different?

Mike Kim [00:24:47]:
Right.

Diana Alt [00:24:48]:
When you're managing an online reputation.

Mike Kim [00:24:51]:
Yeah. So that's just what I look at. Ideas, expertise, reputation and personality. I think personality gets overlooked a lot.

Diana Alt [00:24:58]:
I was just gonna ask you, which of those things do you feel like people have the most trouble with owning and kind of uncovering for people when they're developing their brand? Is it personality or is it something else?

Mike Kim [00:25:13]:
Yeah, Gun to my head, I would say personality. Typically they're good at what they do.

Diana Alt [00:25:19]:
Right.

Mike Kim [00:25:19]:
The people who I've. I've seen in my experience who struggle the most typically come from very highly regulated backgrounds.

Diana Alt [00:25:26]:
Okay.

Mike Kim [00:25:27]:
Finance, law, medicine, education, the military, where these you. You're slapped on the wrists with compliance and regulatory. And so it's just sort of you got to stay in the box and stay in your lane. Naturally, there are people in all of those disciplines who are mavericks. They're kind of just like, you know, you know, no one's going to tell me what to do. And they thrive. They have no problem sharing what they think and sharing. Showcasing their personality.

Mike Kim [00:25:57]:
It has very little to do with expertise or reputation. It's mostly their personality and making their ideas sound or. Or be unique. Yeah, yeah.

Diana Alt [00:26:10]:
Clear for. For the pew. I work with a lot. I'm really interested to hear, like, who you're working with and how you work with with, like how you go through a project with them. But what I'll say is, for a lot of my people are kind of in that senior management director, they want to either knock on the door of being a VP or maybe launch their own consulting firm or make some other kind of pivot. And when I think about your model of ideas, expertise, reputation, and personality, what ends up happening is they're concerned that they don't have a unique idea. They, especially the more technical ones, they think that they can't claim expertise even though they did something forever because they're not the most. Whatever, smartest cyber security leader, whatever on the planet.

Diana Alt [00:27:03]:
And they're terrified that if they talk about personality, things that aren't quote, unquote professional, that they will ruin their reputation. So that's what I see. And it's often like pulling teeth. That's why I'm so happy you wrote the book, because the book own your own your brand, own your career is so freaking simple. When I first started reading, I did read it. I am a podcast host that read the book before I had you on the podcast. So when I started reading it, I was like, this is so simple. And I had to take off my.

Diana Alt [00:27:38]:
Diana's been an, you know, an online business owner for years and put on my. What would my top client that wants to build thought leadership. And I. It kind of opened the whole door, like, oh, this is simplicity at its finest.

Mike Kim [00:27:55]:
So, yeah. Yeah, I take that as a compliment. I feel like the simpler your tools, the more likely you're going to use them.

Diana Alt [00:28:00]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [00:28:01]:
And at the end of the day, it's just, are you good at what you do? Are you able to tell people that you're good at what you do? And are you able to. Are you likable? Likable and trustable? And that's really it at the core. One of the exercises that actually took me by surprise When Andy and I were working through this, I stumbled into this exercise before he and I worked on the book together, when I was trying to help people in that transition period where they. They've done one thing that was on their job description. They're trying to move into another area, maybe either start their own business or. Or move. Move upwards. Because I went through this.

Mike Kim [00:28:46]:
I sat down one day. I think I was super frustrated during that time. I was coming back from a conference, I was like, I've heard some of these speakers and they're not very good. I feel like I can help more of these people.

Diana Alt [00:28:57]:
Yes.

Mike Kim [00:28:58]:
But I just don't know how to market myself. I don't know how to talk about myself. And I think it's in my own head. I don't think.

Diana Alt [00:29:05]:
Wine bottle problem.

Mike Kim [00:29:06]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:29:06]:
The label, when you're inside the wine bottle is how I often talk about it.

Mike Kim [00:29:10]:
So I sat down and I wrote down, what have I done at all these jobs, these roles that I had. I taught high school students, or I counsel students on their grades, or I wrote curriculums. I recruited music team volunteers for the church. I marketed the albums that we recorded. I hosted conferences at the church. And I will never forget. I wrote this all in a notebook. I just took my pen and just crossed out the end of those sentences.

Mike Kim [00:29:39]:
And all I saw was I taught, I counseled, I wrote, I recruited, I marketed, I hosted conferences. And like, this is what I am, you know what, finding my skills through the roles or the job description. But this is what I do day in and day out, that is really interesting to me.

Diana Alt [00:29:59]:
And I may adapt that. I have another exercise I do with people when they're trying to figure out what they want to do, because everybody says I want to solve problems. That is not unique. It drives me batshit crazy when people say that because I'm like, you're paid to solve problems. No one hires anybody as a consultant or a full timer. If you're not solving problems, you're not unique. But it's something that, particularly a lot of people that are in the tech field, and what they mean is gnarly technical problems involving a lot of data or technology that hasn't even been invented yet, or the people and processes to make those things happen. So in my case, I have people do a stories exercise where I have them write down three stories anytime in their career or life where they felt the happiest and the most inflow and like, they were the most effective and enjoying their work.

Diana Alt [00:30:47]:
And then I have them write a Couple that were negative. And I'm also a CliftonStrengths nerd. So are you. Are you. Are you familiar with CliftonStrengths?

Mike Kim [00:30:56]:
Strengths finders? Right.

Diana Alt [00:30:57]:
Yes.

Mike Kim [00:30:58]:
Yeah, I took that years ago.

Diana Alt [00:30:59]:
They rebranded it Gallup, rebranded it CliftonStrengths.

Mike Kim [00:31:02]:
Okay.

Diana Alt [00:31:03]:
But I have people look at that, and we synthesize it and figure out that either the things that people don't like in particular, they're either not using their strengths or they're working with. And the things where people like it, they are having good results and mostly are working in their strengths. So. But the task thing is really interesting because when I'm in the job search mode, the biggest battle we have with individuals looking for jobs is that they want to write just tasks on their resume, which is not enough. So I have kind of passed over thinking about tasks like you did. But it might be. Might be something I have to do to help people when they're trying to plan a pivot.

Mike Kim [00:31:46]:
Well, for me, for me, it was. I worked at a church. I don't have any professional credentials. Like, who am I? Like, I had to change the story. I was telling myself. One of the things we talk about in the book is, you know, shape your narrative, otherwise somebody else will. And usually the first person you have to shape that narrative with is yourself. Like you were saying the wine bottle problem.

Mike Kim [00:32:09]:
And I was like, well, I don't have this degree. I don't have that degree. I haven't been in school for a while. I don't have an mba. And I was like, wait. But I have real world experience.

Diana Alt [00:32:20]:
I have actual results.

Mike Kim [00:32:21]:
Yeah, I've done these things in, you know, even more so. Like, some people think working as a church at a church is easy. And I don't want to get, like, too far into the religious aspect of it, but you want to talk about an environment where you can just make things up and pull rank. Like, I mean, you know, from your. Your. Oh, well, we're not going to do that because it just doesn't feel right because, you know, the spirit isn't telling us. I'm like, wait, hold on. Where's the book of unwritten rules? I would like to read it.

Diana Alt [00:32:49]:
Right. Can I, you know, do that? Is that in the Apocrypha? I say, as a Protestant, there's one of the interesting things, too about church environments is how little most people in church leadership know about legally employing people. Like, that's a whole different topic for a different day. But they don't know that there's There's a lot of things that are happening that are against the law, and everybody's like, I went to seminary and then I got a call to a church. And no one trained you in, like, HR procedures.

Mike Kim [00:33:24]:
Right, right, right. Yeah, of course, of course. Yeah. No, none of that. None of that. But, yeah, that was one of the most helpful exercise that I stumbled onto. And then when Andy and I started working together and we would help our. Our attendees or whatnot work through this stuff, it was all like a light bulb moment.

Mike Kim [00:33:45]:
And I was like, yeah, it's because you've probably done a lot more than you think you have.

Diana Alt [00:33:48]:
Yes.

Mike Kim [00:33:48]:
We view everything through the job, the lens of the job title and the job description. But what about all the other stuff you do where you're comforting a co worker because they just had a rough day or you're organizing. Organizing a happy hour after work? I mean, Andy did that a ton, according to him. So I was like, dude, you're good with people. You is. It's no surprise to me that he hosts conferences.

Diana Alt [00:34:12]:
Yes.

Mike Kim [00:34:13]:
So it's like, oh, gosh. And so. But he was never paid to do that in his role, and now he's turned a whole business out of it.

Diana Alt [00:34:21]:
Yeah, that was the same thing. Like, I was coaching people. Kind of like you were figuring out marketing while you were a musician. I was coaching people both as a manager in the workplace and as just helping my friends for, like, years before I ever took a dollar. And the first people that paid me for career coaching said, I want to pay you, so I will be accountable for this thing I know you can help me with. Which was very weird, but it changed my whole life because I turned on that little entrepreneurial side of me. My parents taught school and had, like, they grew up on farms, and farms are businesses, but when your farm's been around for a hundred years, you don't think of it like you think about the businesses that you and I have started. So I want to shift real quick.

Diana Alt [00:35:12]:
There's so many things that I wrote down. There is a really I want to talk a little bit about. You are the brand. Before we go farther into the new book, there's a page in here that I have marked. This changed my business. And it is the effective and ethical sales call script. This. This changed my close rate by about 60% inside 30 days, 45 days, something like that.

Diana Alt [00:35:44]:
I went from like a 20 or 25% close rate on high ticket sales to closer to 40. So talk to us about ethics in the brand and how that plays out for you. Like, the sales call script is great for consultants and you can walk through it a little bit. But to me, it was the effectiveness and the ethics of it that I loved because those are two things that a lot of shoddy marketers suck at. And then they teach other people to not be good at that and then it is brand damaging.

Mike Kim [00:36:18]:
So, yeah, I would say that the preface for all that is people like to buy, they don't like to be sold. And if you think about it from that standpoint, as a consumer, none of us like to be sold to.

Diana Alt [00:36:35]:
Okay.

Mike Kim [00:36:36]:
We like to feel that we have the agency and the decision making power to choose something even if it's marketed to us, Even though it's subtle, even though Amazon is feeding us ads left and right, you know, we still want to feel like I am choosing this product or this service. And if you're doing a good job of what I call pre selling or doing a good job in your marketing, the sales call is just a. Are we a right fit call.

Diana Alt [00:37:08]:
Mm.

Mike Kim [00:37:09]:
It's not. I'm moving you from we just got to know each other and let's get married.

Diana Alt [00:37:14]:
Yes.

Mike Kim [00:37:14]:
That typically doesn't happen. Usually they're getting to know like and trust me, through the content that I create. There's some semblance of familiarity or rapport. It doesn't have to be years. It could just be they've listened to two or three podcast episodes or read one article and they were intrigued by something. But when I approach the sales call, I'm trying to invite them to a conversation, but I'm directing the conversation so it doesn't become a free coaching call.

Diana Alt [00:37:49]:
I'm like, I am not a prosperous coach girly. Like, I am not getting on. I can change someone's life in 30 minutes. So I'm of the opinion that, like, one of the best things I ever did in my business is stop doing that. And I actually stopped doing sales calls on Zoom too. I only do them on the phone now. I decided you have to pay to see my face.

Mike Kim [00:38:11]:
Yep. But I, I think the phone works even better because they're attentive, they're like leaning in and they're more present in what you're saying. So the way that the, the script sort of goes, there's not really a script. They're more just general guidelines. But this is kind of how I explain it. Number one, you say, hey, this is how the call goes. So. Hey, Dave, great to, great to talk with you today.

Mike Kim [00:38:37]:
I'm glad we Jumped on. So this is how we're going to cover things today or this is how the call goes. I'd like to share with you a little bit about what we're going to talk about. Is that cool? Yes. So I'm going to ask you what you call what caused you to reach out about me. I'm going to ask you some questions to see if I can help. Then I'll tell you what we have available. And then, you know, when we're done, you can ask if everything is clear.

Mike Kim [00:39:00]:
Does that sound fair? That's it. And I'm putting the power back in his hands. And nine out of ten times they'll say, yeah, that's great. Let's. Let's get started. I was, okay. What was it that caused you to reached out to me about Fill in the blank issue. And I'm getting him to talk.

Diana Alt [00:39:19]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [00:39:19]:
And usually depending on the client, the prospect, they can all be different. Well, we're not marketing very well or our business isn't working or like I'm sensing a shift in my career and I don't know which direction to go and they're giving you some question, some things to ask for the questions about. So then I will try to find, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I'm trying to find the pain question because typically when people jump on one of these calls, their guard goes immediately up.

Diana Alt [00:39:48]:
Yep.

Mike Kim [00:39:48]:
And they forget why they reached out to you in the first place. It's because they need help.

Diana Alt [00:39:52]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [00:39:53]:
So if it's, well, our, our business isn't doing so well, I'll just go right in and say, well, I'd love to help, but I need some context. How much did you guys make in the last quarter or how short were you? I'm going straight to the issue.

Diana Alt [00:40:08]:
You go really, you go really deep, really quick. Which is, does not work as well for a lot of the sales that I do. But that's where you just have to know what you're doing. So for me, when I do, I just, I did two sales calls yesterday, so this is very much top of mind if I ask him. Compensation is part of my pricing structure and it also is part of, you know, where am I going to point these people? It matters. A VP making 350 is a whole different ball of wax than a project maker manager making 125. And if I hit it at the very beginning, their defenses will go up. But if I talk to them and say, look, I price based in part on level and Compensation because there's nuance for these higher level roles and we have to spend more time getting, you know, crafty on this then they will tell me.

Diana Alt [00:41:04]:
I mean I, they'd probably give me their like Edward Jones login by the time we get to that point because they're so dialed into solving the problem.

Mike Kim [00:41:12]:
That's perfect. I love that you nuance that to your particular situation. So my, my script or my, my framework is more for people like me who are approached as a service based professional to help them grow their business. But that's perfect for you. And then I want to get to like the emotional part and I'm not trying to get like super touchy feely, but I'll just ask them, tell me more about that. Like, how's that? Like where are you frustrated or how does that make you feel? Or you know, how much do we need to make? I'm just trying to get them to name the gap and I think that's really important. If you can help the client name the issue that they really have, then you guys are on the same page and you can move the conversation forward. Essentially what I want to do.

Mike Kim [00:41:59]:
I don't think I explained this part very well in the book, but essentially, Diana, what I'm trying to do is get us to stop sitting across from each other at the table and help us both sit on the same side of the table and move forward.

Diana Alt [00:42:12]:
That's how I think about it too. Like when I am pitching particularly job search search coaching services. I actually learned this from Angie Callan, who you need to be on her podcast too. You got that booked. You need to get on that podcast.

Mike Kim [00:42:28]:
Yeah, we did. Yeah, you did.

Diana Alt [00:42:30]:
So she's, she had a really clever way of saying it that resonates because it's exactly how I work where we say, this is a comprehensive strategic job search program. I'm going to insert myself into your life for a while so we can get this done. Is basically the vibe. Because most of the people, the farther up the food chain they get, the lonelier they feel like as CEO is a hell of a lot lonelier at work than a vp, than a project manager or whatnot. So, um, I, I appreciate the framework though and it is really good. And I, I will tell people, buy this book for page whatever it is139 that I made you sign for me because I'm a nerd like that. So let's talk about the new book. So I'm interested in what led you to write it.

Diana Alt [00:43:21]:
And also like collabs are such a big part of branding. So you have a formal collab with this book with Andy Storch. What led you guys to come together and decide that was the right collab?

Mike Kim [00:43:35]:
Yeah, so a couple of things there. It was my idea, so I approached him.

Diana Alt [00:43:42]:
Well done.

Mike Kim [00:43:43]:
Yeah. Thank you. And one of the things that I knew early on in my business, especially when I wrote that first book, you are the brand. I always had a desire to take the principles in it and apply it to different markets. That was always in the game plan for me. But I don't have inroads to all those markets, so I would need a partner.

Diana Alt [00:44:02]:
Right.

Mike Kim [00:44:03]:
Secondly, I love collaborating with people. I don't want to shoulder everything myself. Like, that's just not the way I work. Third, I get bored easily. So if I just stayed in my niche of helping coaches and speakers, I would have got bored. That's one of the things that I love about marketing. I just meet a lot of different kinds of people and study a lot of different industries. So from a strategic standpoint, from my own business, I just felt it would be smart to diversify into other markets because I'm essentially a generalist with these personal branding.

Mike Kim [00:44:36]:
Principles are general principles, and they really have power when you apply them to a certain market, just like you did with that call script. So I had known of Andy. I met him a few times, but everything really changed when he decided to join one of the mastermind groups I was running.

Diana Alt [00:44:54]:
Oh, okay.

Mike Kim [00:44:55]:
That was cool because we saw each other every two weeks for a year, and it was right on that we ended that run right at the cusp of him moving overseas to Barcelona. And so I'd gotten to really know him. And I'm not saying I chose him because we were in a mastermind together, but it's just because we spent a lot more time together than we normally would.

Diana Alt [00:45:14]:
I don't think it lessened the risk of the collaboration.

Mike Kim [00:45:19]:
Oh, yeah.

Diana Alt [00:45:19]:
When you're doing something like that, you're risking. Each person is risking their brand.

Mike Kim [00:45:24]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Diana Alt [00:45:26]:
So.

Mike Kim [00:45:27]:
So I was, you know, looking. I was scoping him out for a while. You know, I knew that he had written a book. He clearly had competencies in running a podcast, a virtual summit, webinars. He'd done all of that. And I didn't want someone where I would be the first time they did all that stuff. That's just too much of a headache. So he had all the experience.

Mike Kim [00:45:47]:
He had written a book, and I was just, how do we vibe? How do we get along as just friends, as colleagues. And about a year in, I was like, hey, I have an idea. I think we could do really well with this. We get along well. We're around the same age, and they're at the same point in our career trajectories. What do you think if we combine forces and at least just do a book together, like your book and my book could get together and have a baby. And he was like, cool, let's do it. So we took some baby steps along the way.

Mike Kim [00:46:19]:
We did some webinars together where we co presented. This is when he's overseas in Europe now, so we're not in a mastermind together anymore. Because the time zone difference and all that. And it served its purpose. Like we got to know each other. So we took a few baby steps, did some content create creation together. I'd gone on his podcast, he'd come on mine, and I just knew that he was easy to get along with. He wouldn't push for things to be a certain way, and neither would I.

Mike Kim [00:46:52]:
We just wanted the best of what we could create together. And I said, look, at the end of the day, you are the one who has the footprint and the network in this industry. Your name should go first on the book. I have bestseller credentials and this other entrepreneurial network, and I have connections, but I also have the marketing expertise and the writing expertise. I was a ghostwriter. I'm the more experienced writer. Let me handle that part. And let's just peanut butter and jelly this thing instead of peanut butter and more peanut butter.

Diana Alt [00:47:25]:
Yes.

Mike Kim [00:47:25]:
And to me, that's a great partnership.

Diana Alt [00:47:28]:
I think there's so much to unpack in what you just talked about. So the things I'd say for anybody. And a collaboration doesn't have to be a book for the people that are listening to this and going, this woman jumped straight to collabs. Like, I barely even know what a brand is yet. The thing about collaborations is a lot of people think, oh, I'm just going to do this with my friend. And that's great. Like, it's cool to do collaborations with your friend. But what you did is you very specifically knew where are the gaps that I need to fill.

Diana Alt [00:48:00]:
And I know that Andy, who also happens to be my friend, can fill those gaps. I had thought about this book. You know, like I said, I've thought about. I was applying you are the brand with clients. Because I do work with some people that are solopreneurs or side hustlers. Like, it's kind of, to me My ethos is work should feel good. And if you need help in that area as well, I help you with it. But when I sat and read through the beginning of your book where you outlined.

Diana Alt [00:48:27]:
And this is Mike's background and this is Andy's background, and I've known of both of you for over five years, I'm like, wow, that really. That really is good. You really got. You guys really did do a good job. So if people are trying to figure out, like, who should I collab with, who should I network with? That's the first thing that most people in corporate are thinking about, especially if they don't have a brand yet. Look for people that have common values and interest, but have something that you don't have, which is hard because a lot of people are afraid to admit that they don't have something, so they won't even go there.

Mike Kim [00:49:03]:
That's absolutely. You're absolutely right. I mean, it takes a lot of humility. I didn't get into this so that I could add more stress to my life. You know, there. There are some ideas that work and then there are some ideas that really make you work. And I didn't want the ladder. I just wanted some alignment.

Mike Kim [00:49:19]:
It still took work. But one of the ways that I approach these kinds of situations, then as I look at it, almost like a. A physical model, like, I want to partner up, I want to collaborate across and I want to mentor around. And those are like the three perspectives I take when I'm looking at these kind of situations. A partner up is somebody I've got way more to gain than they do. If we work together in those situations, though, I'm trying to figure out what I can provide for them that they can't buy. You know, is it. Is it a really established coach or leader and I can become their best case study.

Diana Alt [00:50:03]:
Ah, okay.

Mike Kim [00:50:05]:
Yeah, they need that. Well, great. Then I can provide that. A collaborate across is where we're. We're kind of in the same league. Some of us are ahead of others, and maybe I'm behind some of the other people in my league, but we're generally in the same boat and we can do a lot together. And I'm always looking for that. Jelly to the peanut butter.

Diana Alt [00:50:28]:
Okay.

Mike Kim [00:50:30]:
I can't. It would take me 10 years that I do not have to grow the network in corporate that Andy has.

Diana Alt [00:50:38]:
Right?

Mike Kim [00:50:39]:
It wouldn't. I probably would never even get there, and it would take him 10 years to write and market on the level that I do. And all the understanding that I have there, like we're running ads. These are all things that he hasn't done before. I'm like, I'm gonna take it all. We'll take care of it. My team and I will take care of it. A mentor around are the people I'm coaching or mentoring.

Mike Kim [00:51:00]:
And they will support my work because I've been their guide and their mentor. And they'll buy the book and they'll share it with others and they'll get word out. So I look at it from those three kind, almost like a physical perspective up, across, around. And it helps me to figure out what I'm bringing to the table and.

Diana Alt [00:51:20]:
What I think that's really helpful. Because me personally, I'm very good at at around and down or yeah, sideways and the. The collab and mentor. But I have a hard time with what do I have to offer, you know, if I was going to go try to partner with Mike Kim on something like what the hell do I have to offer my Kim? Especially when he's got Andy Storage that already works in the career space. But I have tech inroads. So, you know, maybe there is. But I love that example that you gave of. I could be your best case study.

Diana Alt [00:51:58]:
Because people forget that this someone on high that has the bestselling books and makes $40,000 to be on a stage or whatever, what the hell ever they think is too much, needs constant, like, validation of their social proof, you know? And I don't mean it in a weird like you need therapy kind of way. I mean it in a. We are doing this thing. We are mentoring others, we're teaching, we're speaking, we're writing. And we want to show a new person that benefited in the last year, not constantly go back to the people from five years ago. So, yeah, yeah, thanks. Thanks for that. The.

Diana Alt [00:52:38]:
When you think about. So tell. Tell a little bit about a typical. When you're working with a thought leader, especially knocking on this corporate door, can you tell just a little bit about what that person might be, what they might be trying to do? And then very high level, some of the things that you take them through over the course of an engagement. Because a lot of people are like, I don't know what to work on. And another thing I loved in the you are the brand book is you talked about the Chinese zodiac approach that you took to your business and how you don't have to do everything simultaneously. So tell us as our guru here, what order do you have people go in whenever they're building their brand?

Mike Kim [00:53:20]:
Yeah. The first is always their point of view. And just like we shared a few minutes ago, people from highly regulated industries have a hard time sharing their point of view.

Diana Alt [00:53:30]:
Yes.

Mike Kim [00:53:31]:
They, they toe the line, right? They, they say what's normally said. So I, I work them through an exercise called the personal brand 3. It's just a very simple Venn diagram. It's in both books. What pisses you off, what breaks your heart and what's the big problem you're trying to solve? Okay. And I leave it very open ended. They're like, pisses me off about work. I'm like, anything.

Mike Kim [00:53:52]:
I just want you to rant because most of the time when you ask people what they want, they give you very diluted answers. They say very vanilla things like, I want to make an impact. Yeah. I want to be happier, I want life margin and blah, blah, blah. But if you ask them what they don't want or what they hate, they're very clear on that. I mean, a very everyday example is, hey, what do you want to eat for dinner tonight? Oh, I don't know, whatever. Well, you want Indian? No, no, no. Chicken? Chinese? No, no, I had that the other day.

Mike Kim [00:54:23]:
Okay. You want burgers? No, I would say it's too heavy. They're so much more clear about what they don't want.

Diana Alt [00:54:28]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [00:54:29]:
So I discovered this just by reverse engineering like what ticks you off about anything or everything. And then they, they will give me an answer. It pisses me off, like terrible leadership and, you know, narcissistic people in leadership and usually, almost always Diana, there's a personal story connected to that, so I'll let them air it out. Oh, the, you know, shitty leadership or whatever. I was like, oh, so when's, when's the time? Can you tell me about a time when that happened in your life? And then they go, whoa, whoa, I didn't know you were gonna ask me that.

Diana Alt [00:55:03]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [00:55:04]:
And we pull on that thread. A lot of people cry. There's a lot of emotion.

Diana Alt [00:55:10]:
I have the same experience and the, the way that I work with people, like sometimes I'm going deep in person like that, and sometimes I'm not planning on that. And then it happens.

Mike Kim [00:55:20]:
Yep.

Diana Alt [00:55:21]:
But it's such a unique approach because a common thing, especially before the tech market went wackadoodle the last 18 months or so, the top thing I dealt with for many years in my coaching practice was that the tech market was so hot that especially if you were in like cyber security or software development, you could wake up on Monday morning Decide it. I'm done with this job. Have a contract job offer, making at least 10% more by Friday. And if you wanted a W2, you could do it inside 30 days. So people were only running away from bad stuff and never identifying the good stuff that they wanted.

Mike Kim [00:56:02]:
Well said.

Diana Alt [00:56:02]:
So you got to get, you got to get both sides of it eventually. But, yeah, get there.

Mike Kim [00:56:07]:
Yeah. It's like you want to go from a present negative to a future positive, but you also have to go think about what is my present positive. So I avoid a future negative.

Diana Alt [00:56:17]:
Yes.

Mike Kim [00:56:18]:
And so you see both of those things come together. And that's when I discovered, like, these three questions. I stumbled onto that, too. I, I, I remember writing it on a whiteboard at one of my workshops because I was trying to help them understand it. That's where most of my frameworks have come from. Like real life.

Diana Alt [00:56:35]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [00:56:35]:
Applications.

Diana Alt [00:56:37]:
How do I get the 14 people in this mastermind retreat to understand what the hell I'm talking about 100%?

Mike Kim [00:56:44]:
And so that's where I always start. Because anything outside of that, they're either not being truthful with themselves, they're not being honest with themselves, or they just want to make money. And I'm like, there's better ways to make money than doing this. Right. Like, this requires all this is a.

Diana Alt [00:57:00]:
Really hard way to make money.

Mike Kim [00:57:01]:
It's a hard way to make money. So it's always their point of view what pisses you off, what breaks your heart, what's the big problem you're trying to solve? In other words, what's the injustice that you see in the world? What's the compassion that you have for people or a cause? And the problem you solve is the purpose of your role, your job, or your business. It's that simple. Business is really just solving a problem, like you said, for a profit. And there are problems that are not profitable to solve. That's why we have nonprofits. But you want to be a little bit more clear about that stuff. And if you have a skill set and experience that solves a real problem for people, like you said, it's probably going to be easier for you to find work, because it's always harder to convince people of a problem they don't think they have.

Mike Kim [00:57:53]:
But I want the individual's point of view and stories and experiences that that point of view was birthed out of. And it's almost always there. Almost always there.

Diana Alt [00:58:07]:
I have yet to run across a situation where it wasn't. And so that ends up getting into the Content. Because sometimes you don't want to talk about it in detail. Even though, like, I really struggled for the first year or so after I left corporate because I'm like, I don't know how to talk about this thing that just happened that was not good. And now I'm like, if I ever have to hold a W2 from anyone other than myself, I don't care. But it took a long time. So what? You've got the point of view. If you're working with, say, a vice president of something, maybe a VP of marketing that doesn't know how to market themselves and wants to build that brand, what are you doing with them in the first, like, 90 to 180 days after they have come up with that point of view?

Mike Kim [00:58:54]:
I'm helping them formulate and articulate personal stories.

Diana Alt [00:58:59]:
Okay.

Mike Kim [00:59:00]:
They don't have to be tell alls. I think there's a big difference between authenticity and transparency. I think people mistake transparency for authenticity. Transparency is something reserved for the very few people in your life that are close to you. You can be authentic and like, what, seven, eight years, 10 years ago, I went through the start of what ended up to be a really tough divorce. I don't know that divorces are ever easy, but it sucked. And I didn't air out all my dirty laundry. I wasn't transparent about it.

Mike Kim [00:59:34]:
I was authentic about it. I would say to my audience, there's a lot of stuff going on in my personal life right now. I'm gonna peel back on my podcast and not do it for six months. There are some really big changes, and people aren't stupid. They could see that my social media posts didn't have my ex wife in them anymore.

Diana Alt [00:59:49]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [00:59:50]:
Like, they're not dumb.

Diana Alt [00:59:51]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [00:59:52]:
But I'm not saying, like, oh, she did this, or she said that, or this is what happened with Tuna, but that's not necessary. And I think the pendulum swings so much because of what we have on social media. People think that telling personal stories is either presenting a false version of yourself. Like, you know, I love that Tai Lopez is getting sued right now for $112 million. Like, what a shift.

Diana Alt [01:00:17]:
Not my favorite.

Mike Kim [01:00:18]:
Right? Let me just shoot some videos in front of rented supercars and imply that this is almost whatever. People like that do that. But then there's this other side where it's like, let me just tell everybody about all my struggles and overshare in the name of authenticity, when it's really just TMI I had to go through.

Diana Alt [01:00:37]:
It wasn't a Divorce. But I had literal brain surgery two months ago yesterday, and I had a pituitary tumor that was impacting my vision and ruining my life and all kinds of other ways, and I finally got to have surgery. And my friend Liam Darmody, who is quoted in your book a couple times, that was surreal to read, like, oh, that's my friend. He's in the book. He and I had a couple of conversations about this because it was very important to me to talk about this from the perspective of solopreneurs that are like, crap, I have to be off work. And also people that might have the same condition, and also, you know, people in corporate that might go through the thing but not be too transparent. And I think I did a pretty good job with that. But it is not easy to figure out how you can actually serve someone with an authentic struggle without making it horrible and ridiculous to listen to and all of that stuff.

Diana Alt [01:01:39]:
So, yeah, it's tricky. And a divorce is harder because it's your ex, too. Like, you have to. You're not an. You're gonna respect the privacy of both you and your ex as you go through that.

Mike Kim [01:01:54]:
Yeah. Hopefully people will respect it. Right? I mean, I tried my best to do that, and so did she. What I always try to find is what's where. What's the arc of redemption here? What are you learning? Or how are you processing? There's no resolution yet, but how are you navigating this? And if I can share with my audience, hey, this is real tough sometimes. That's all I've got to say. And it's interesting. I get so many responses.

Mike Kim [01:02:23]:
That podcast episode still lives on my show. And they're like, I had built such goodwill with my audience that they're like, hey, we're here for you. Please take all the time you need. I'm sorry. I got so many messages from people. Keep your head up. There's always a better thing coming. Like, I've been through divorce.

Mike Kim [01:02:42]:
I've been through loss. It was incredible to see. And I think about what I would have missed out on had I not been authentic about what I was going through, had I tried to hide it. That said, I know that the professional setting can be very different, but I think there's always a way you can not spin it, but reframe it for people.

Diana Alt [01:03:04]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [01:03:06]:
One of the things Dan Miller, rest in peace, said that I love was, what does this make possible? I will never forget that, uh, Dan is an author and a coach. Passed away a couple years ago, and really influential in my industry. Ours. Our industry. I remember one time he picked me up from the airport. I was coming into town into Nashville for an engagement and he picked me up from the airport. And we get to launch. Oh my gosh, I've lost my phone.

Mike Kim [01:03:36]:
I don't know where my phone is. And he's like, oh no, you're going to be here the whole week without your phone. I was like, I don't know what to do. He's like, do you want to call the airlines to see if you left it on there? I was like, I'll try. And like sometime after lunch, they had somehow emailed me. They, I think through my ticket, I looked at it on my laptop and they said, we found your phone, come back and get it.

Diana Alt [01:04:03]:
I had the exact same thing happen to me. Yeah, I left it in a, like a, I don't know, like a shuttle bus situation in Jamaica. I was like going back from the. All inclusive to the airport and I didn't get the email until I got home. So. But it was like this interesting team effort because other people stayed an extra day beyond what I did. So got my phone back, but so, so crazy.

Mike Kim [01:04:29]:
So this happens. And Dan says, well, what does this make possible? I was like, I don't know. I guess I'm just gonna hang out with you guys here and be more present. And when I got the email, he's like, let me drive you back to the airport. I was like, no, no, this is like a. You've already spent an hour. Like, you know, I don't want you to drive me there and bring me back. And he said, no, let's go.

Mike Kim [01:04:53]:
So I had an hour of time with this guy, which, I mean, he's a, he's, he was a high level coach. I was like, well, got a free hour. Yeah, here we go. And I've always tried to remember that even in the face of discouraging circumstances or, or things that don't pan out. What does this make possible? You know, most of the things that challenges that we face in our lives are not going to be like catastrophic. I mean, sure, there are some, but what does this make possible? And I have used that as a reframe ever since. It's the most valuable thing I learned from him.

Diana Alt [01:05:27]:
That is a really, it's a really good one. And I think about it a lot because there are things that I do been doing a lot of work lately on core values and I've been asked to speak at a couple of things about true values alignment. So not Just some hokey, you know, get the six words that are your values. But how does that actually impact culture or impact a decision to hire someone or go to work somewhere? And to me, like, generosity is one of my core values, as is curiosity. And that causes all kinds of crazy stuff that the people that want you to build the repeatable funnel would say is a bad idea in my business. But for me, being generous in that way enables me to have deeper relationships. And then I end up with the sales call I had yesterday with a guy I didn't know from Adam that found me. It was like a Six degrees of Kevin Bacon.

Diana Alt [01:06:22]:
But I. You know, generosity built up people that got him to me. So cool stuff. Well, I want to do. I could talk to you all day. I'm not going to, but there were some people just earlier today, I just said, hey, Mike Kemp's coming on my show. Like, who has questions? I got a million questions, including Ian Ng. That's like, is he at home? Can we see Fuji?

Mike Kim [01:06:47]:
It's my dog, apparently.

Diana Alt [01:06:50]:
Apparently, you need to take a picture of your dog and send it to Ian. But I wanted to ask a couple of the ones that I thought were really good. One of them actually came from Andy Storch, and I said, well, I wanted to talk about that, too, so I'm going to go with it. The first part he said is, why did he risk degrading the brand by writing the book? But that was a joke. He said he wanted us to talk a little bit about how to stand out in a world of AI because that's just one of the biggest icks right now for people. There's so much content being created. How does a person building the kind of brand that your book readership and my people would want to build, stand out in the AI world?

Mike Kim [01:07:38]:
Yeah, so this was a. We have a chapter on that in the book. I think we laid out seven points, if I remember correctly. The first six are pretty, you know, straightforward, like, emotional intelligence, being able to collaborate with people like you. And I've talked about already, like, storytelling. That's a big piece. Here's where. And I remember when Andy and I were talking about this, I had to explain this a little bit.

Mike Kim [01:08:08]:
What it's what I would call tastes and discernment. The easiest way for me to explain this is Rick Rubin, who is one of the greatest music producers of our time, has produced everyone from Elton John down to the Beastie Boys. I mean, wide range of people doesn't play an instrument. Why is he so good at this, it's because of taste. Guy grew up in New York, went to nyu, hit the music scene. He just knows what works and what doesn't. And I know that sounds very intangible, but I know everybody who is good at what they do. They understand what I'm saying.

Mike Kim [01:08:46]:
You know it. When you coach people, you can sniff it out immediately, whether they've got the drive to affect change in their life or not. You know, if this particular post or messaging is going to hit or not. You know how to coach people through an interview or a proposal. You just have that taste, and that is what is going to make us stand out. It's hard to define, but everyone can feel it. It shows up in the way that you carry yourself. It shows up in your energy, in your vibe.

Mike Kim [01:09:21]:
I've been obsessed with this question to all of my friends and colleagues. What do you think is the next rubric that we as humanity are going to create to assess our performance in what I call right now energy or vibes? We have iq. We then had eq, emotional intelligence. We have dq digital intelligence. Like, don't write in all caps. Don't like this kind of, you know, like all these unwritten rules. But we just have an intuition. We have taste.

Mike Kim [01:10:01]:
And I'm like, what about sq? Is it a spiritual quotient? Is it an energy quotient? Is it a vibe quotient? And you're already seeing that kind of terminology woven into the zeitgeist of today. Vibe coding, vibe marketing. How are you feeling? It's a feel. And you think about what these guys can do that AI cannot. He knows Rick Rubin knows that Johnny Cash doesn't need a lot of production on his voice. It's just gravelly and real.

Diana Alt [01:10:36]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [01:10:36]:
You know, and he knows Elton needs a little bit of polish because he's got a more refined. How does he know these things? He just does.

Diana Alt [01:10:43]:
He just listens and he listens and he listens carefully, and he's learned his craft. And here's the. Here's the thing. I'd say for anybody that's like, okay, I want to build a personal brand. I don't even know if I have taste. Like, this is new. How do I think about this? You kind of. You.

Diana Alt [01:10:59]:
You just have to, like, take the shots. So I'm a really good writer because I write and also because I read. So people have said, this is. You're going to be like, episode 26 or something on the podcast based on my current plan. And people are like, you're doing A good job for 26. And I'm like, well, I listened to a billion podcasts before I did it. So for people that are thinking, like, how am I ever going to figure out content hits or not? Number one, think about the content that pisses you off. Don't do that.

Diana Alt [01:11:30]:
And number two, put it out there, or put out the invitations to, you know, have a networking chat or go to lunch or whatever. Just do the damn thing is part of developing the taste and discernment, in my opinion.

Mike Kim [01:11:44]:
You're absolutely right. That's one of the first things that we. We tried to make it really practical. Like curate what you consume. Yeah, like. Like curate it. But the second, pay attention to what resonates with you. And not just, I like this book or I like that movie.

Mike Kim [01:11:58]:
No, like, what scene really gripped you in that film?

Diana Alt [01:12:02]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [01:12:03]:
What chapter in that book really jumped out of you? Whether it's fiction or nonfiction, I'm always, look, one of the things I love doing is watching cooking videos.

Diana Alt [01:12:14]:
Really?

Mike Kim [01:12:15]:
Yeah. I love learning, like, how these guys see the world. They are not chefs. These are philosophers who do it in the kitchen. And I'm just like, okay, there are lessons here because they are the world's best at their craft, that if they were athletic or could put a ball in a hoop, they'd probably be in the NBA. I'm looking for those kinds of things. A photo. Why do I like this photo? What is it about this? Because you're just exercising and having conversations with your inner creative and your inner artist, and we all have it.

Mike Kim [01:12:49]:
We all have our preferences. We're just not intentional about understanding what those things are. I think those are the things that we're going to need to do to stand out in this age. Let me give you another example. There's a gal I follow on Instagram. Her name is Sabrina Romanoff. She's really great at teaching AI, and she's very open about the fact that most of her social media videos, her Instagram reels, are created by AI. And then you start to see a couple of these videos that I think this is going to happen a lot more, where she's clearly doing things that AI cannot replicate.

Mike Kim [01:13:26]:
For example, she sets up a live stream on her Instagram sitting next to her husband while he's playing Call of Duty or Halo, a video game. Oh, that's split screening. So you see what he's playing on the screen while she's just talking live streaming while she's next to him playing the game. I cannot replicate that. And I think we're going to have to figure out new ways to prove that we're human or to create the content that is a counterbalance to all the AI stuff that we're going to create.

Diana Alt [01:14:01]:
I think it's also, I think. Sorry to interrupt. I think it's also when we're open about when we use the AI, I think it helps people trust us more. So really funny. And I realized I do it kind of, but maybe I need to think more about it. I had someone message me yesterday that is like, you know, I don't know if he wants a coach or not. We're just chatting on LinkedIn but he's like, right in the. Right in that ideal client avatar for me.

Diana Alt [01:14:29]:
And he said I, I had messaged him actually first to say thank you so much. You've engaged on posts, you know, a lot the last couple weeks. And he's like, you make sense. And I can tell it's not AI. And I messaged back and I'm like, well, sometimes it is, but I trained it on myself so there's a little bit of a mix there. And he said, well, thanks for telling me that. Most people wouldn't admit it. One other question.

Diana Alt [01:14:56]:
And then I have a little bit of a couple of questions I ask everybody. Lightning round ish. Although who knows if it'll be actually fast. A really good question that my friend Dan Windler asked is what is a thing, like a new thing that people keep asking you about that's really simple but they keep overthinking. What is a simple thing that people overthink all the time?

Mike Kim [01:15:24]:
I'll do it from my entrepreneurial lean, which is validating an idea. Everyone wants to have the validation before they execute, right? And I don't like, I, I don't know how many times I can say it 17 different ways. You just got to put it out there. I've now dumbed this down for my community to the level of create a Google form with a field with their name and their email and that's it. We're going to call it a waiting list. And if you want to try something, you want to review people's resumes as a side hustle, you want to coach people on regulating their nervous system. You do not have to do a 90 minute webinar, set up a waiting list on Google forms so that you don't pay for it and say, hey, I'm thinking about hosting a Q and A session or an info session on my resume review services. Get on the wait list and And I'll communicate with you if you're on it.

Mike Kim [01:16:27]:
It's that simple. So many people think they have to have this perfectly polished webinar and all these complex landing pages and yada yada. And they create excuses for themselves as to why they can't do it. And I try to remove as many of those as possible and they still can't create the wait list.

Diana Alt [01:16:45]:
It's.

Mike Kim [01:16:45]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:16:46]:
Which uncovered something totally different. Like, that's the thing. One of the real. And I'm a person that likes the systems in order because I overthink. And for me to be in my zone of genius, I need things set up to a certain degree. I'm getting more comfortable on it being a different degree than I used to think. You know, I had to do. I can do a Google form where I needed to do like a landing page or whatnot.

Diana Alt [01:17:10]:
But it's so interesting how when you strip that stuff away, the real issue comes up and which is what coaching is. When people say, oh, this coach, they just told me this. I'm like, no, no, no, no coaching. I don't believe in that stance that coaching is 100% asking powerful questions because nobody actually wants that. But I do believe that you can strip things away and strip the excuses and then get to what the real root cause of the problem is. And then if they figure out why they don't want to do their waiting list, great, you've solved the real problem. If you solve that and then you decide I still want a landing page, then make the fucking landing page. Like, who cares? But we need to know why you didn't want to do the thing to begin with.

Diana Alt [01:17:55]:
Avoidance is a big thing. So thanks for that. I really appreciate it. I'm going to go to my. My three favorite questions that I ask people. So the first one is, what is the worst piece of career advice you have ever received?

Mike Kim [01:18:10]:
There's so many. But I'm trying to pick a good one for. For here. It's that just working hard is enough to get you where you want to go. I can work really hard at math and physics and I'm not going to get anywhere. Yeah, I'm just not naturally inclined to those things. I also do feel that follow the. Follow your passions and money will follow is bad advice.

Diana Alt [01:18:44]:
It's terrible.

Mike Kim [01:18:46]:
Follow the money and then your passion will follow is also bad advice. It depends on the stage of life that you're at. Yeah. If you are in your 20s and you want to follow your passions and you can't pay Rent, like, yeah, we got to grow up here. Right? We got to start talking some real, you know, like, real stuff. If you've built up some wealth and savings and you have more cushion to follow your curiosities, then go for it. I think that, yeah, that advice was just to me as an Asian kid. You have to work hard.

Mike Kim [01:19:26]:
You have to work really hard.

Diana Alt [01:19:29]:
One of the things, I was in product management for a long time and a guy that was a product management executive I worked for for a while said, we have got to figure out how to stop doing the same stupid shit harder. Which would be the equivalent of you trying to figure out how to be an engineer whenever you're actually an artist at heart. So next one is, what is a personal habit that has helped you be successful 100%.

Mike Kim [01:19:56]:
This is how quickly I'm answering it. Gratitude practice. I use the 5 Minute Journal in the morning. I wake up, make cough, put on the coffee, take a cold shower. By the time I'm out of the shower, the coffee's ready and I sit there and listen to this spa music. This is how I start every morning. My dog looks at me, just chilling out. And I Write in the 5 Minute Journal three things I'm grateful for.

Mike Kim [01:20:23]:
Three things that would make the day great, that I can control, not. It would be great if I won the lottery today. Right. No, that's not in my power. And a daily affirmation. And in the evenings, which I admittedly don't do as consistently, you write three great things that happened today and what you learned that day. I have done this without fail for three and a half years. And it's completely.

Mike Kim [01:20:47]:
I have like a stack on my bookshelf of these gratitude journals because it goes like, like six months at a time.

Diana Alt [01:20:53]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [01:20:54]:
And what it's done is it has lowered the highs and it has elevated the lows so that I'm at equilibrium.

Diana Alt [01:21:02]:
That's really important because like Zen is. I mean, I'm 50 years old. Like, I want peace. Yep. Which is not the same as boredom. So.

Mike Kim [01:21:11]:
Yep.

Diana Alt [01:21:12]:
And then.

Mike Kim [01:21:13]:
Yeah. Well, I'll let me explain a little bit further. Cause I think it was right on the day that our book hit number one on Amazon for career growth and professional development. It was one of three good things that happened that day. And the other two was I didn't drink and I got my workout in. And if you look at my five Minute Journal, me not drinking and me working out is way more common occurrence in my life than writing a best selling book fair. And it makes Me realize what really makes me happy. It's that I take care of my body, that I'm eating well, that I'm working out, that I'm getting enough sleep, that I was present with my friends.

Mike Kim [01:21:54]:
Not. I love this, but this is just a small.

Diana Alt [01:21:57]:
You also don't write that book if you are not healthy. You can't do that thing if you're not healthy.

Mike Kim [01:22:06]:
It has absolutely changed my life. Absolutely.

Diana Alt [01:22:09]:
I love that a lot of. And it's, it's, I love that you had an immediate answer for that because a lot of people don't. So. And then the last one before we close is what is something that you've changed your mind about recently?

Mike Kim [01:22:28]:
I have changed my mind about. Let me phrase it this way. I am looking a lot into how the world really works. What I mean by that is politics, power, the elite, what's really going on here? I mean, we're in the United States. It's, it's crazy right now. I mean it feels like it's always been crazy, but especially the last 10 years.

Diana Alt [01:22:52]:
Like this timeline is really weird right now.

Mike Kim [01:22:54]:
Yeah, it's, it's, it's so wacky. And for the first time in my life I don't really make fear based decisions. But I also try not to be totally ignorant and blind as to what's going on. I've had serious conversations with my friends and my family about. I think we should, we should make some preparations about our future. Like is this, is this empire that we live in still going to be around in 10, 20 years? Like this convergence of what's going on politically, AI with all the disruption that could happen. Like, I've changed my mind. I'm looking a lot into it and I'm not looking into it by reading the news.

Mike Kim [01:23:32]:
I'm looking actually at history.

Diana Alt [01:23:34]:
Yes.

Mike Kim [01:23:34]:
I'm looking at how civilizations have fallen. I just read last night, this is great conversation. I just read how the Aztec Empire literally got wiped out in less than two years. They one of the biggest cities in the world that eventually became Mexico City. And you know why they lost? Because the Spanish brought smallpox in two years. I mean, I remember two years ago like it was yesterday.

Diana Alt [01:23:57]:
Yeah.

Mike Kim [01:23:57]:
And so what I'm realizing is that just because rapid change hasn't happened in our life, catastrophic change hasn't happened. We're about the same age. It doesn't mean it can't. Right. And I'm looking not at AI to tell me the future. I'm looking at history to tell me what patterns have we gone through as a species. And that is the first. This is the first time I've really looked at that.

Diana Alt [01:24:20]:
Well, thank you for sharing that. I've started poking at that too. I can only poke a certain amount before I make myself crazy, but I think that's great. So I'm going to have all the things in the show, notes of where to find you. But if you, if you had two things you wanted to share with people about how to connect with you or your content, what do you want them to know?

Mike Kim [01:24:42]:
First, I would say LinkedIn is a great I'm being more active there because of our book on your Brain on youn Career and Andy has pushed me to get more active on LinkedIn. And second would be my newsletter. Okay, I don't have a fancy title for it yet, but if you just go to mike kim.com newsletter I've decided to write a newsletter every week, pretty long, 1500-2500 words, almost like a chapter in a book and re syndicate that. Just read it direct to camera from my YouTube channel and record the audio and put it on my podcast. I'm only creating one piece of content a week and that's what I want to do.

Diana Alt [01:25:20]:
This is your six month test that I think I heard you talk about. Very cool. Well, thank you Mike. This exceeded my expectations and my expectations were pretty high. So thank you so much for coming and everybody will see you next time.

Mike Kim [01:25:37]:
Pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Diana Alt [01:25:38]:
Want some more career goodness between episodes? Head on over to DianaAlt.com and smash the big green let's Connect button to sign up for my newsletter. Let's make work feel good together. And that's it for this episode of Work should feel good. If something made you laugh, think, cry, or just want to yell yes at your phone, send it to a friend, hit follow, hit subscribe, do all the things. And even better, leave a review if you've got a sec. I'm not going to tell you to give it five stars. You get to decide if I earned them. Work should feel good.

Diana Alt [01:26:15]:
Let's make that good. Your reality.