Diana Alt [00:00:04]:
Hey, Diane Alt here, and this is Work Should Feel Good, the podcast where your career growth meets your real life. Each week I share stories, strategies, and mindset shifts to help you build a work life that works for you on your terms. Hey there, everybody. Welcome to Work Should Feel Good, the show where your career growth is meeting your real life. I'm your host, Diana Ault, and today I got something a little bit different for you. My guest, Todd Herzog, and I are going to talk about rebuilding your life and career after success, setbacks, and everything in between, and what it really takes to create work you love. If you're into that kind of thing, feel free to hit the follow or subscribe, drop a rating, whatever all that stuff pops up. Podcast stuff is that we do.

Diana Alt [00:00:54]:
Todd is a former flight attendant who has turned into an artist and an entrepreneur. One of my favorite pieces of art in my home is made by Todd. Most people got to know him first, though, as the winner of Survivor China, which is the 15th season of Survivor if you're hanging out on Paramount Plus. Today, he's built a custom creative business designing and building custom Funko Pop artwork, which I think is really cool. And I'm excited to talk about what unexpected turns his career is taking because Survivor is definitely not his entire story. Welcome to the show, Todd.

Todd Herzog [00:01:27]:
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. That was quite the introduction. Thank you.

Diana Alt [00:01:31]:
Did you like it? Should I start over?

Todd Herzog [00:01:34]:
I really did. It was good.

Diana Alt [00:01:36]:
Well, the first job I knew of you having is flight attendant.

Todd Herzog [00:01:41]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:01:42]:
The job that you have now that you're in my Facebook feed all the time doing your raffles and showing off your art. is artist and entrepreneur. And then there was like some stuff in the middle, and the one job was only 39 days long. So I mean, that's where people know you from, but it was only 39 days long. What was your actual first job?

Todd Herzog [00:02:03]:
My very first job, I worked— so I don't know if you ever heard of a place called Cleanflix. So it was a Utah-based company that started Editing rated R movies.

Diana Alt [00:02:19]:
Oh my gosh, that's on brand for Utah. Yeah, I live in Kansas and I grew up in Missouri, but I have several Mormon cousins, so that makes sense. Did you edit for them or—

Todd Herzog [00:02:29]:
No, no, no, no, I sat in their little video store and rented out VHSs that were edited.

Diana Alt [00:02:34]:
Oh my gosh, people.

Todd Herzog [00:02:36]:
So my neighbor was the guy who started it, and I was 15, and most places wanted 16-year-olds, but I wanted a job, so he hired me. As soon as I turned 16 though, I got a job at the movie theater because that's where I really wanted to work.

Diana Alt [00:02:50]:
Oh, fantastic. I love movies too. I've never worked in a movie theater, um, but I love— well, I kind of did. I actually had a contract project management job, like, so in my big, in my big girl career in IT before I switched to coaching full-time, AMC Theaters headquarters is like 20 minutes from me.

Todd Herzog [00:03:11]:
Oh, nice.

Diana Alt [00:03:11]:
And so, yeah, so I got, uh, like a 6-month-long project management job there, and I had always worked on software. And it was interesting because I was working on other stuff. Um, the group I was in was called Theater Systems. So like one of the jobs I had to do was related to like cutting-edge ticket printers back when we were still printing tickets out, because we had specially had them designed to use lighter paper and be more eco-friendly and all this crazy stuff. And I'm like, unlike anything that I'd ever done. But it was pretty cool. I learned some stuff behind the scenes. So have you always been a movie buff? Is— did you want to work at the theater because you were a movie buff or what?

Todd Herzog [00:03:48]:
Yeah, I've always been a movie buff. I mean, and I worked— I've worked in movie theaters for like a total of 15 years. I mean, I was— yeah, I started, you know, working in the concession stand. I worked my way up to box office, turned 18, became a manager. And then when I lived in Florida, I was a server at the AMC Dine-In Theater. So I did that. And then I even came back and was like the general manager of an AMC here in Utah for a while.

Diana Alt [00:04:18]:
Oh my gosh, that is so crazy. We probably— I mean, I actually had to tour. One of the projects I did was doing like asset tagging for like IT security stuff. And I had to go and inventory all of the theaters in Atlanta.

Todd Herzog [00:04:36]:
Really?

Diana Alt [00:04:36]:
And the very first— it was either the first or second dine-in theater is 10 minutes from my house. So, 'cause they test all the concepts. How cool is that?

Todd Herzog [00:04:47]:
Listen, working at that dine-in theater was amazing. I loved it. It was at Disney Springs. So it was like really, really busy. And so we made really good money.

Diana Alt [00:04:57]:
Are you a big Disney person? Oh yeah.

Todd Herzog [00:04:59]:
I mean, I worked at Disney. I did the college program when I was 20.

Diana Alt [00:05:02]:
Okay.

Todd Herzog [00:05:03]:
So I worked the teacups in Disney World for a year and that was incredible. But I love Disney. I've always loved Disney.

Diana Alt [00:05:12]:
Wow. I am a person, I have this group of entrepreneurs that are basically my work family since we just work by ourselves, right? And a whole bunch of them are very into Disney and I'm like the weird outlier. I was 45 years old, almost 45 years old, the very first time that I ever went to Disney. No, I was 45.

Todd Herzog [00:05:33]:
Really?

Diana Alt [00:05:34]:
Yeah. I'd never been to anything at all. And I signed up to go to this conference in Orlando. with my friend Terry Weaver, um, who's my business coach and he runs an event series called The Thing. Um, and the VIP day was like, let's go to Disney. And one of the people in the community at the time was a former Imagineer.

Todd Herzog [00:05:55]:
Really?

Diana Alt [00:05:56]:
So we took this small group of people to Disney, um, with an Imagineer and heard all of his crazy stories because he actually helped design Tower of Terror, like a bunch of crazy stuff. So that's cool. When I go hard, like when I do something, I guess I go hard. But yeah, I'm not as much of a parks person, but I like the movies. So it's interesting though. Disney is— what do you feel like you learned in the college program that applies to how you do work now? Because everybody I've ever talked to that's been in that college program said no matter where they went with the rest of their career, they ended up finding lessons from Disney that, that influenced them.

Todd Herzog [00:06:35]:
Honestly, it was one of the coolest things I've ever done in my life. I feel like I kind of really found who I was there. Like, I I came out at Disney.

Diana Alt [00:06:43]:
Oh, when you were in Orlando? Or when you were at Disney?

Todd Herzog [00:06:46]:
Yeah, when I was there. And so, like, it's— but it also— I got to meet some incredible people. And I learned to deal with some really horrible people. You know, like, I got to learn how to be a customer-friendly person. And so I feel like I did learn an awful lot of lessons through being an employee or a cast member there. Yeah. But also just, it was one of those things where I didn't ever dream of working at Disney. I had never— before I was a cast member, I wasn't a Disney fan.

Todd Herzog [00:07:17]:
I just was looking.

Diana Alt [00:07:19]:
Ah, OK.

Todd Herzog [00:07:20]:
I was looking for something different. And I was at school. I saw a flyer for the college program. And I was like, that's weird. That seems kind of cool. I went to the interview. And I got it. And I was like, well, I guess I'm going to Florida.

Diana Alt [00:07:34]:
Okay.

Todd Herzog [00:07:34]:
And it was, you know, I went and I had the time of my life.

Diana Alt [00:07:37]:
What did you study in college?

Todd Herzog [00:07:39]:
That's just it. I kept swapping what I wanted to do. I couldn't figure it out. So I never finished college. I kept changing my majors and I would just take random classes here and there. And I even went to hair school and I did that. And I was— after I graduated that, I was like, I don't want to do this. So I just kept changing my mind.

Diana Alt [00:07:57]:
Oh my gosh. What are some of the things that you— I know you didn't settle on a major, but what are some of the memorable courses that you took that either taught you I'm interested more in this, or, oh my God, get me away from this?

Todd Herzog [00:08:09]:
I mean, I took a lot of English and a lot of writing classes.

Diana Alt [00:08:12]:
Yeah.

Todd Herzog [00:08:13]:
Um, because I was always good at writing and English. Um, and I took, you know, film lit history. I took a couple science courses, which I hate science, so that was not my passion there. But it was all just very basic random things. I even took bowling.

Diana Alt [00:08:33]:
So bowling, I don't remember if my college had bowling, but there, I mean, I went to this D2 school that was primarily engineers. Like we used to say that we used to say like, yes, all the other schools are going to beat us in football, but you'll work for us someday because like we're the smart ones.

Todd Herzog [00:08:50]:
The smart ones.

Diana Alt [00:08:51]:
Yeah. That was kind of how we went. I have a chemistry degree and an engineering management master's degree and worked 20 years in tech. Yeah. And now I coach, so I coach people in tech mostly, but Um, that's so, that's so interesting. So flight attendant, because that's the first thing I ever heard. And what's weird is, um, I mean, it's— you talk about it when you're on Survivor, but I feel like I knew that somehow. I don't know.

Diana Alt [00:09:17]:
Reddit tells you things.

Todd Herzog [00:09:20]:
Probably.

Diana Alt [00:09:20]:
And I kind of stumbled across Survivor Reddit when Liz was on. Liz Wilcox, episode 16. She'll teach you about email marketing and she'll tell you about Survivor. Um, But that was kind of wild. And I'm like, okay, who's this person? I bought— that's how I found out about you, is Reddit Survivor, um, is where I found out about Todd's Pop Shop and bought some stuff. But how did flight attendant— where did that come from?

Todd Herzog [00:09:48]:
Okay, so I had— I was managing the movie theater and in college, and then I did the college program, so I moved to Florida. Once the program was over, I came back to Utah Okay. And I went back to the movie theater, and that's when I started to say, what next? And I randomly came across— I don't know, like, SkyWest was hiring flight attendants.

Diana Alt [00:10:13]:
Okay.

Todd Herzog [00:10:14]:
And I was like, I've always wanted to see the world. And so I applied for that as well, just because. And I got the job. And so I became a flight attendant.

Diana Alt [00:10:26]:
How long were you a flight attendant for?

Todd Herzog [00:10:28]:
I was a flight attendant for about a year and a half. I had to quit to be on Survivor.

Diana Alt [00:10:32]:
Yeah, well, you know, it's a, it's a dream for a lot of people to be on. Is that how you were? You were like, I must do this? Did you apply a bunch of times before?

Todd Herzog [00:10:43]:
I applied 3 times before I made it. So I was a fan from like day one, you know, little 15-year-old Todd. As soon as I was 21 is when I started to apply. And the third time is when— because back then you had to be 21 to apply.

Diana Alt [00:11:00]:
Okay.

Todd Herzog [00:11:00]:
So the third— the second time I applied was for Survivor Fiji, not where it is now, but like the actual—

Diana Alt [00:11:08]:
Not Fiji all the time Fiji, but the season.

Todd Herzog [00:11:11]:
But the season Fiji.

Diana Alt [00:11:12]:
Yeah.

Todd Herzog [00:11:12]:
And so I was a semifinalist for Survivor Fiji and I got cut and I was devastated and I was like, I'm never doing that again because that was my dream and it just like broke my heart and Chyna was casting, and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do it. And so on the last day that you could send a tape in, I sent my tape in.

Diana Alt [00:11:31]:
Yeah, because guys, this was— was it— did you play in 2000? When did you actually play, and when was it released?

Todd Herzog [00:11:38]:
I applied for it in 2006. I played in 2007, and it aired, released in 2008.

Diana Alt [00:11:46]:
Okay, so, um, that was a rabbit trail. So when you did that, so you were, you were doing the flight attendant, you got cast, you did The Last Day. Oh, were you sending in VHS? Is that what you were doing?

Todd Herzog [00:11:59]:
Oh my gosh, that's wild.

Diana Alt [00:12:02]:
Um, I remember watching season 1, Borneo, which was the only season I ever watched until 2023 when Liz's season aired. And I remember like seeing all of the stuff with like, oh, the date in the corner, we're doing VHS. And so 6 years later we were still doing that. It's funny how Technology changes so fast. It feels like we have— it feels like everything we have now we've always had, except for maybe AI. And 2 more years, we're gonna feel like we've had AI since the dawn of time. So what made you want to go on Survivor?

Todd Herzog [00:12:37]:
You know, it's so opposite of who I am. I'm not an outdoor person. I'm not a camping person. I don't like hiking or anything like that. And I feel like it was something that I was so fascinated by the game, and I was like, I can do this. And nobody believed that I could do it because I don't like outside.

Diana Alt [00:12:59]:
And nobody understands what the game is.

Todd Herzog [00:13:02]:
Exactly.

Diana Alt [00:13:02]:
And so I was like, you know what, the game is like, can I swim or stand on a pillar or whatever until—

Todd Herzog [00:13:09]:
like, how good am I at doing an obstacle course? No, that's not the game at all. It's a social game. And I always, you know, told myself that I'm good with people. I like people. I like to get to know who they are. I like to ask questions and find out what makes them tick and how they operate. And so I knew I could play the game. And so, well, I mean, to backtrack a little bit further, in high school, like, so growing up, I was like the fat nerdy kid.

Todd Herzog [00:13:37]:
I didn't have many friends.

Diana Alt [00:13:38]:
Okay.

Todd Herzog [00:13:38]:
And I was like, I was kind of a loner. but a big dreamer, right? I had all these like dreams of like, my walls were covered in posters and just stuff like that. So as soon as I got into high school, I was like, I'm gonna change this because I want friends. And so I went to, I looked around the school and went to the different cliques.

Diana Alt [00:13:58]:
Yeah.

Todd Herzog [00:13:58]:
And I would find the one person who didn't fit into their clique, who looked like they were a little bit out.

Diana Alt [00:14:04]:
Yes.

Todd Herzog [00:14:05]:
And I invited them over to my house to watch Survivor. So I invited 14 people over to watch Survivor Marquesas, and I didn't know them. I didn't know these people. I just said, we're going to start our own thing. And all 14 of them showed up.

Diana Alt [00:14:19]:
Stop. So they're— oh my God. So they're on the outskirts of whatever group?

Todd Herzog [00:14:24]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:14:25]:
And you decided— that's very clever.

Todd Herzog [00:14:28]:
Like, let's, let's make a little club of our own.

Diana Alt [00:14:31]:
Yeah, make a little club of your own. But also, it's very strategic because if you had decided you liked somebody or you liked a group, then maybe you could also find inroads into that group too. So yes, but you made, you made your own thing.

Todd Herzog [00:14:44]:
Yeah. And so it started off with 14 of us, and then by the time I graduated high school, there was like 40 to 50 people every Thursday night at my parents' house watching Survivor.

Diana Alt [00:14:56]:
Oh, well, what did your parents think about this plan for to make friends? I—

Todd Herzog [00:15:00]:
they loved it because, you know, they were always— they were sad that I didn't have friends, and they knew that I wanted friends. And like, I didn't know why. I mean, I wasn't good at sports, so I didn't play And I didn't want to do the theater thing. And so I was just kind of like the kid who didn't have his thing. And I found my thing.

Diana Alt [00:15:19]:
Did you come into art later?

Todd Herzog [00:15:21]:
Oh yeah, I came into art way later.

Diana Alt [00:15:23]:
Okay.

Todd Herzog [00:15:24]:
Because I never really tried it. I had never been someone to, like, pursue it until COVID.

Diana Alt [00:15:33]:
Really?

Todd Herzog [00:15:34]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:15:35]:
You were not doing art until COVID.

Todd Herzog [00:15:37]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:15:38]:
My mind is blown by that. I wanna put a pin in that 'cause we're gonna talk a lot about your business. But when you think about your life before you went on Survivor, you know, you were trying to get on, you did it 3 times. You have done all of this bouncing around, trying different stuff in college, going to Disney, to work. What did you think your life was gonna look like in 2026 when you were—

Todd Herzog [00:16:04]:
I refuse to— I refuse to— no. Um, everybody— that was what everybody was always asking. Where do you see yourself in 5 years? What do you think is going to be happening? And I was like, listen, I could be dead in 5 years, so I don't want to think about it. I want to just focus more on what I want to find where I fit. And, you know, so the Survivor Club was the first thing that I really fit. And then I, you know, then Survivor, I fit. And then, um, you know, my, my life was a whole lot of looking for what is next, I think.

Diana Alt [00:16:35]:
Okay.

Todd Herzog [00:16:35]:
But then once I find— once I found what fit, I kept it.

Diana Alt [00:16:40]:
Okay, that makes a lot of sense. So you found your— you found your community with Survivor Club, then you found your community with Real Survivor, and you said you feel like you fit with Survivor. And like part of the social game is humans are pack animals fundamentally. Like we might all joke, we might see memes online about like, you're an introvert and this is amazing. And I don't ever want to talk to people and all that kind of crap that people like to say. But fundamentally we're pack animals and we don't survive without each other. Did you feel like, did you truly feel like you fit when you were on the show or was that whole, they're going to boot my ass out or? We're voting each other off. Did you ever feel that?

Todd Herzog [00:17:24]:
No, because I felt— I felt right away comfortable. Okay, it's weird. I, uh, I always tell people, you know, never get comfortable and never get cocky, which I guess is not the best advice because I was comfortable and I was cocky. And I don't know how or why, but I got there. And at first I was scared, of course, you know. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm the smallest guy out here. Like, there's no possible way. But after like 3 days, I was like, I have this in the bag.

Todd Herzog [00:17:52]:
I can do this.

Diana Alt [00:17:53]:
Okay.

Todd Herzog [00:17:54]:
And it just worked. Like, things were working in my favor. And I mean, it just was, it was crazy how almost, you know, it was as if it was created for me to play that season.

Diana Alt [00:18:08]:
How? I mean, people, whoever you think is holy might have set that up for you.

Todd Herzog [00:18:15]:
Right.

Diana Alt [00:18:16]:
Might have set that up for you. Did you truly feel, so it sounds like you felt comfortable with the game. Pretty quickly. Did you actually feel comfortable with the people? Because when you're a person watching the show, especially when you're a little bit of a reluctant fan like I am— guys, he's not on the show because of Survivor, he's on the show because of figuring out how to make his work life and his business make him happy— but did you feel like you were really bonding with the people on the show? Because when we watch and we know, we know the premise that you're gonna vote each other off, we don't think that's possible.

Todd Herzog [00:18:51]:
Um, okay, it is 100% possible because for us at least— so back then it was 39 days, each episode was 3 days, right? So you're seeing 47 minutes, which was 72 hours for us. And—

Diana Alt [00:19:05]:
With 10 million cameras.

Todd Herzog [00:19:07]:
Yes. And you literally sit there in the mud for hours and hours and hours a day, starving, wearing like basically nothing. And you have to cuddle for warmth with these strangers at night. It's just bizarre. I mean, I know you can't cuddle now because of rules, but back then, that's what we did.

Diana Alt [00:19:27]:
There was no Me Too in 2007 when you were— Yeah.

Todd Herzog [00:19:31]:
And so, like, we got to know each other so quickly on such deep levels. And of course, I didn't get along with everybody, and that made my job easier. But I did get along with quite a few people. And some, like Courtney, the runner-up on my season, is my best friend still to this day. And she feels like part of me because I just know her so well. Well, she knows.

Diana Alt [00:19:58]:
And so, yeah. The way you describe it sounds like— when you went to college, did you live in a dorm or were you at home or what was your situation?

Todd Herzog [00:20:05]:
I had an apartment. There were no dorms here. It was basically a dorm.

Diana Alt [00:20:10]:
So what you're describing is how I sometimes talk to people about when you click with somebody new. 'Cause when you go to college and you live in a dorm, by the end of the first week, you feel like you've known everybody forever.

Todd Herzog [00:20:23]:
Yes, that was the college program too. Like you had 8 people in one apartment, you know?

Diana Alt [00:20:28]:
Oh, I didn't know you did that. So I just know a few people that have been in it and they talk about, you know, how they, to me, especially as an executive and career coach, they're gonna talk to me about how it impacts their career. They're not gonna talk about the fact that there were 8 people piled on top of each other in an apartment.

Todd Herzog [00:20:48]:
I mean, There were so many. It was crazy because 8 of us in one apartment and, you know, you, you share a room and you share bathrooms. It was just— you get to know them real quick.

Diana Alt [00:20:58]:
Yeah. So for me, whenever my friend Liz— this is okay. I usually— if you're on audio only, you don't see it. This is my Liz Wilcox Funko Pop. Todd made that. Um, it was one that I got because I wanted to buy Liz her favorite person or one of her favorite people. But when Liz was on the show and I'm her good friend and I'm watching, it's like visceral to watch your friend starve. And we— so it has me thinking a lot about— it's visceral to watch your friend starve, and it's also visceral to watch the internet hate your friend.

Todd Herzog [00:21:36]:
Oh my gosh.

Diana Alt [00:21:36]:
Which happened a lot, um, with my friend. I mean, she was on the front— she was on the front page of TMZ a couple of times. And it gets me thinking a whole lot about Survivor contestants or other reality TV contestants, hell, celebrities in general. They're freaking people. So what are some of the things that people get wrong about you? Because the main way that they know you is because of a show that you recorded 19 years ago.

Todd Herzog [00:22:07]:
Oh man. I mean, I guess the main thing people would get wrong about me is people like to automatically assume that I'm manipulative in my daily life, that like you can't have an honest conversation with me, um, because that's what they saw on TV was me manipulating conversations to get further in a game. But to me, life isn't a game, you know?

Diana Alt [00:22:33]:
Right.

Todd Herzog [00:22:33]:
Like, life is completely different than Survivor. Survivor was a game where I had to do that. That was the only way I could do that because I'm not a physical threat. So I couldn't win challenges. So I was, you know, very— and I was very open with people too when I said, like, I will use you in my game and then get rid of you when I don't need you anymore. And a lot of people thought that sounded harsh. And I'm like, well, there's only one winner and it's for $1 million.

Diana Alt [00:23:00]:
So that's like saying I'm going to build hotel— I'm going to build hotels on Boardwalk and Park Place whenever you have to roll a 7 or a 9 to get on Boardwalk and Park Place.

Todd Herzog [00:23:10]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:23:11]:
And then someone getting mad. Like, that's Monopoly.

Todd Herzog [00:23:14]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:23:15]:
That is Monopoly. So what? Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Todd Herzog [00:23:19]:
So I do think a lot of people, when they meet me in person, they're like, oh wow, you're actually like really friendly. And I'm like, thanks, I try.

Diana Alt [00:23:27]:
You're immediately friendly. And it's— it was like almost disconcerting whenever I first reached out to you. I'm like, this dude won a million dollars. I don't know. All I know is this guy makes art that I want, but he like won the show. And I don't know, I just want to get a Sonya Pop for my friend and he's having a sale, so I'm gonna get one for me. But you, um, you're very friendly and engaging just even from DMs, and you present yourself that way online, and you're proving it out 22 minutes into this conversation. Um, do you find— I just like people.

Todd Herzog [00:24:03]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:24:04]:
Uh, is it weird to say that you like people But you manipulated people in the game, or is that again the hotels on Boardwalk and Park Place?

Todd Herzog [00:24:14]:
I think it's the hotel— the hotels on Boardwalk, because to me, when people question doing that, right, then when they say like, I don't know how you can do that, I'm like, well, when you play a game, do you just roll over and die? Like, do you just let people win, or do you play to win? And they're like, oh, I guess I, I guess I play to win. I'm like, that's what I was doing in the game of Survivor.

Diana Alt [00:24:40]:
It's—

Todd Herzog [00:24:40]:
that's literally it. I never meant to hurt anybody's feelings. If I did, I would own anything that may have hurt them. However, I tried to be very much game mode when it came to Survivor, you know?

Diana Alt [00:24:56]:
Yeah. Um, so you won the game. Spoiler alert, guys, it's a 20-year-old show. If you didn't know that, sorry. Um, you won the game. How did winning the game change your life immediately right after you got back? Um, good or bad?

Todd Herzog [00:25:16]:
Truthfully, like, it didn't. I don't feel like my life super changed. I was able to, like, you know, afford things better, but I went right back to work. I never— like, I always— I've always worked and I didn't—

Diana Alt [00:25:30]:
Well, and you— they announced— they announced it. You did live finales then, so you actually played and you didn't get paid out until a year later.

Todd Herzog [00:25:39]:
Correct.

Diana Alt [00:25:39]:
Right.

Todd Herzog [00:25:40]:
Well, okay, so we filmed from, um, June until August. It started airing in September and finished in December.

Diana Alt [00:25:48]:
Oh, okay. So it wasn't as long as it is now. Okay.

Todd Herzog [00:25:50]:
Correct. So it's, it's done differently now, but the live finale was in December and that's when I got paid. And so, like, I didn't go crazy. When it came to like, you know, blowing money or whatever. I was— I think I was scared of like what I was supposed to do. I went— I think I went and bought like a couple DVDs and I bought a car and I was like, okay, like save the money. But then I started like— I did go travel some more, but I always kept working. And so my life really didn't change a whole lot except for I had the freedom to do more of what I wanted to do for fun.

Todd Herzog [00:26:25]:
Um, and that was— I traveled a lot. Like, I went all over the place. And so every job I had was very, very part-time because I would be like, oh, I'm gonna go spend a month in St. John, you know? And like, I'm gonna go sail through the Virgin Islands for no reason, just because I want to.

Diana Alt [00:26:44]:
Yeah.

Todd Herzog [00:26:45]:
And so it was very— it was not a, like, what I would call a realistic life, but it was a life that I— of things that I wanted to see and do.

Diana Alt [00:26:54]:
Did it change anything with your relationship with your family after you— like, how did Survivor, if it did, change your relationship with your family?

Todd Herzog [00:27:04]:
So I've always been really close with my family. Like, it's, you know, I was raised Mormon and whatnot, and the family is religious. But when I came out, instead of doing what many Mormon families do, which is like exile their child, my family was accepting and loving and We all live very close to each other, so—

Diana Alt [00:27:24]:
Oh, that's nice.

Todd Herzog [00:27:25]:
You know, many of us. And so we get together, you know, at least once every other week for dinners or birthday parties or whatever. And so we've always been like a pretty tight-knit family. And, um, so I don't think it like really changed anything at all. It was just kind of a cool experience for all of us to share.

Diana Alt [00:27:46]:
I love that perspective because, um, that's another thing. You were so young because you were 22 when you played, um, which is wild. I was looking on Facebook in preparation for the interview and it pops up the birthday and I'm like, this man is 41 years old.

Todd Herzog [00:28:01]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:28:02]:
And which is one of the things I find interesting is that you still find such joy in this thing that you did when you were 22. You've built a lot of your career Your current business is a still-around survivor in many ways, but you're like a grown-ass man.

Todd Herzog [00:28:19]:
And I am.

Diana Alt [00:28:22]:
You're a grown-ass man. And for those of you that are just listening, he's in— you're in like one of your art shop rooms in your house. There's supplies behind him. There's like— I love your logo, your Pop Shop logo. Um, but it's still a grown-ass man. It's just not a cube farm with a laptop like all of us. most of the people I've worked with have. So—

Todd Herzog [00:28:45]:
I am grown, but I still have fun. I still find joy in the small little things. Like every time I go to the grocery store, I have to buy a mystery something. You know how they have those great blind boxes? I just wanna know. Like, so I buy one of those, just something stupid, because it's like a fun little surprise can make your day.

Diana Alt [00:29:05]:
You should put, do you ever do in your business like blind little bonuses?

Todd Herzog [00:29:12]:
I do advent calendars.

Diana Alt [00:29:14]:
Oh, fun.

Todd Herzog [00:29:16]:
And because I'm obsessed with advent calendars because it's like 25 days worth of surprises. So I do those and I would love to incorporate a way, incorporate a way to do like a little blind box. The problem with that is you have to make it and it's— I have to make it all and you never know if people are going to be like, I want to buy 20. And then I have to make 20 blind things and like—

Diana Alt [00:29:40]:
Yeah, you don't have to make 20 things. You don't really have to do that. So a few years after Survivor, um, anybody that Googles you is gonna find out that you struggled with alcoholism. Um, at one point you were on the Dr. Phil show, um, which that was— and I did not know that until I was researching this, by the way. I missed that memo. Can you tell a little bit about the chapter that was so difficult?

Todd Herzog [00:30:10]:
Absolutely.

Diana Alt [00:30:11]:
Like, I don't want to— I'm not the person that's trying to exploit somebody that had a problem, but I think so many people feel like they have to be perfect in order to build the life they want. And I'm like, you can have a shitty chapter. Exactly.

Todd Herzog [00:30:25]:
It's a huge part of my story too, though, because it was, you know, a chunk of my life. So One thing that I say to people is, like, growing up in Utah and Mormon, it's— you're kind of not really educated about drugs and alcohol. So, like, I— you, you're told that they're bad, and you're told that, like, you don't do them and you go to hell. So I was, I was 21 years old when I actually had my first drink.

Diana Alt [00:30:49]:
Right.

Todd Herzog [00:30:49]:
Most people are much younger. So I was 21, and I was like, oh yeah, this is fun, right? So I drank very casually like most people. Um, for a few years of my life. But then I found vodka, and I really, really liked it. And I was like, I love the way it makes me feel. I don't— you know, I think it feels great. And so, yeah, to me, I would drink it, and I grew this extreme tolerance. And so I was, I was just drinking.

Diana Alt [00:31:23]:
You're tiny. You're, you're a little thing.

Todd Herzog [00:31:26]:
I was especially back then. I was very—

Diana Alt [00:31:28]:
How are you?

Todd Herzog [00:31:30]:
Um, I'm 5'7, 5'8, right around there.

Diana Alt [00:31:32]:
Okay, so slight— not— you're not a 6-footer.

Todd Herzog [00:31:36]:
Yeah, no. Yeah. Um, but I found vodka, and I— so I started drinking more. And— but it's because I really liked it. I, I loved how I felt. I felt like I could focus. I felt like I could get things done. I felt like I was more confident.

Todd Herzog [00:31:53]:
I know that sounds crazy, but that's how I felt.

Diana Alt [00:31:56]:
It's so different too, though, because a lot of people, when you hear that they— you're telling a little different story, and maybe what I'm about to say is part of it, but a lot of people, when you hear they had a substance problem, it was an escape. They were like, my life sucks, my job sucks, everything's terrible, I drank to escape. And I'm hearing like a different thing from you, unless I'm missing something.

Todd Herzog [00:32:18]:
No, I wasn't escaping.

Diana Alt [00:32:20]:
It's fun.

Todd Herzog [00:32:21]:
I loved it. And I got to the point where I was drinking 2 liters of vodka a day. This took me a couple of years to get there.

Diana Alt [00:32:34]:
Does your liver still work?

Todd Herzog [00:32:37]:
Yes, thankfully. It shouldn't. I should be dead. But I was drinking so heavily, but my body stopped handling it, right? But I, I was in a delusion of thinking that I was still perfectly fine, that everything was good, that I was functioning. Um, but like, I wasn't. I was, I was a mess.

Diana Alt [00:32:59]:
What made you realize you needed to change something?

Todd Herzog [00:33:03]:
I didn't realize it for a long time. I mean, I went to rehab multiple times because I was forced to go, and I still Wouldn't believe that I had a problem. Like, I did— I was like, I'm fine, I don't have a problem. And so I— it wasn't until, oh man, I mean, I had probably been drinking that way for about 5 years, so I was about 30, and I was like, wow, I feel like I'm about to die. I feel like I'm gonna die. Um, I couldn't function.

Diana Alt [00:33:35]:
That's a lot.

Todd Herzog [00:33:35]:
Yeah, I was, I was a mess. And I couldn't function without alcohol in my system because I'd be shaking like a leaf. And I mean, I was having seizures. I was a train wreck. And so, yeah, I did the whole Dr. Phil thing, but this is all after it.

Diana Alt [00:33:52]:
Okay.

Todd Herzog [00:33:54]:
When I finally one day woke up and I was like, okay, I looked myself in the mirror and I said, Todd, you have to make the choice right now. You can either continue to do this and you will end up dead. Or you can suck it up and stop and say, like, it is okay to feel like you're starting over because that's what I was doing.

Diana Alt [00:34:14]:
Mm-hmm.

Todd Herzog [00:34:14]:
You know, I was, I was going to have to start fresh and, like, get a brand new job and, like, work my way up. And I was 30. And so I was scared of doing that because I felt like I was failing at life. But I decided right there, I was like, okay, I would rather have a chance to live and feel like I'm starting over Then end up dead in a couple of weeks.

Diana Alt [00:34:35]:
Wow.

Todd Herzog [00:34:36]:
I detoxed.

Diana Alt [00:34:37]:
I think the decision is really important. I had a pivotal thing in my life where I made a decision that I think saved my life, too. I was married once when I was 34. I'd been married 2 and a half years. My husband died of a brain tumor.

Todd Herzog [00:34:53]:
Oh, my gosh.

Diana Alt [00:34:54]:
Yeah, that was a lot. And it was fast, too. Like, we went from— he was in the hospital with very severe headaches. To he was dead 5 weeks later.

Todd Herzog [00:35:05]:
Oh my God.

Diana Alt [00:35:05]:
We didn't even know. Like, he had a surgery in the meantime, found out what it was. We were planning treatment and he ended up having a seizure before and dying, even though— or like before we did any of the treatment. And I distinctly remember being— they take you when your person dies in the ER, they take you into the little room where they take people after the person dies. And I was in there by myself because I was waiting for a couple of friends and family members to come and meet me there. And I just remember curling up in a fetal position on the floor and making a decision that I was going to live an awesome life. And I had no idea what I was doing. Most days I don't know if I'm doing it, but I don't think that I would be here if I had not made that decision in that moment.

Diana Alt [00:35:53]:
And that was within an hour. After he died.

Todd Herzog [00:35:57]:
I mean, honestly, that's incredible because you are sitting there in probably the most traumatic moment of your life and you make a decision of either letting it consume you or living your life to the best ability that you can.

Diana Alt [00:36:12]:
And my best ability that I could was not always very good. Like, I was—

Todd Herzog [00:36:17]:
That's okay. That's okay.

Diana Alt [00:36:19]:
It was not, but I still was doing it. And there were days when I was ready to give up on whatever was torturing me that day. And I said, no, I decided that this is what we're doing. So I really love hearing that it was a decision that you made. Once you made that decision, did— how did that go? Did you go to rehab again, or what was the journey after that?

Todd Herzog [00:36:43]:
Um, yeah, I had to make the choice, and I made the choice, and I just stopped. I detoxed, and that was very, very hard. I Went to the doctor, and I— so I didn't go into the hospital to detox, but I did get prescription medication. Okay.

Diana Alt [00:36:59]:
I was going to say, please tell me you got some medical guidance when you were drinking that much.

Todd Herzog [00:37:04]:
It's way too dangerous to just quit cold turkey on your own. You need to have some sort of medical expertise because you can die from the detox.

Diana Alt [00:37:13]:
Yes.

Todd Herzog [00:37:14]:
And so whether it's alcohol or benzos, those are the two that you must have some sort of medical supervision. Because it can kill you. So yeah, it was not fun. It was, oh man, almost 2 weeks of full detox. But once I was out, I started to tell myself like, okay, you know, now the feels come in and this is where it's hard. And like, you know, I want to go drink because that's what— that was my life for years was like, I drank when I was happy, when I was sad, when I was excited, when I was nervous, no matter what, I was just always drinking. And so now I was learning how to live my life without a drink, and it was not fun. Um, I had a few slip-ups, and that was the other part that was super important, is most people beat themselves up when they have a slip-up, right? And then they just go into full spiral.

Todd Herzog [00:38:08]:
Yeah. And it's like, no, you can't do that to yourself, because if you do that, you're just gonna beat yourself up and end up where you were, probably worse, or dead. And so I accepted it for what it was and I moved forward and that was it. Until the slip-ups stopped, you know, like the slip-ups didn't continue to happen. Like they did stop eventually. And it was more of one of those things of like, with time, things changed. And yes, my husband's leaving for work. Bye.

Todd Herzog [00:38:37]:
I love you.

Diana Alt [00:38:38]:
Bye, Jess.

Todd Herzog [00:38:41]:
Drive safe. Um, so yeah, it was— it wasn't easy, but then it did get easier. Now, I mean, I'm, I'm almost 10 years, and it's like I feel like it was a different life. I can't even fathom doing that again. Like, I, I can't wrap my mind around what I was thinking. Um, but I don't try to pretend that it didn't happen, and I don't regret that it happened because— It is part of my story as to why I feel like I am so resilient.

Diana Alt [00:39:16]:
Yes.

Todd Herzog [00:39:16]:
And why I'm determined and strong.

Diana Alt [00:39:19]:
I, um, thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it. Did you ever do any 12-step program or anything like that, or were you— did you?

Todd Herzog [00:39:26]:
I did. I mean, quite a few times, because I mean, I went to rehab many times, and you do the 12-step program in almost all of them. You do the AA thing, and that is, you know, if it works for someone, great. It wasn't my thing. It wasn't the thing that was clicking for me.

Diana Alt [00:39:41]:
I was curious about that because one of the things, um, and like, I'm not an alcoholic, I don't have any other substance problems or things that have led me into 12 steps, so I'm speaking as an outsider. But the whole chip and you have to start over and all of that stuff, I think like for some people it might be great, but I think for me it would beat me up.

Todd Herzog [00:40:05]:
That's exactly what it was doing for me.

Diana Alt [00:40:07]:
I'm like, oh, I'm suddenly down back to scratch because one day out of 15 years I did something. Like, I get that it's one day at a time, but geez Louise.

Todd Herzog [00:40:19]:
Yeah, the whole, the whole idea of having to take a 24-hour chip if you did have a slip-up. And, you know, some people were like 5 years sober and then they were all of a sudden getting a 24-hour chip and then they felt like shit. They felt like they were terrible people. And I'm like, Oh, come on. Like, you are— you're here, which is all that really matters. You realize you did it. And so— and the other thing that, that didn't sit with me in AA was they have this mindset of you're always going to want and need and crave that substance. You're always going to have to have it.

Todd Herzog [00:40:55]:
So you have to make the mental choice daily not to. And I didn't— I don't like that idea. You know, I don't, I don't believe that idea because I don't sit here thinking—

Diana Alt [00:41:06]:
It's not true for you?

Todd Herzog [00:41:07]:
At all. Some people it might be. Some people that might be the case, but I don't think about it anymore.

Diana Alt [00:41:14]:
That's really what— until, until somebody pulls you on a podcast and asks you questions about it. So, um, I want to fast forward a little bit to the art because that's That's really how— that's how I first saw you is like, you're this artist, you made things. So you didn't get into art until 2020. What got you into it? What's the— was this like your sourdough project during COVID or like what got you started with art?

Todd Herzog [00:41:42]:
Okay, well, so I got— I started dating Jess, my husband, 3 years before COVID And he is an artist.

Diana Alt [00:41:53]:
He's very—

Todd Herzog [00:41:54]:
he loves, you know, sketching, drawing, painting. He's very talented.

Diana Alt [00:41:58]:
Is he a working artist? Is that his profession as well? Is it a hobby for him, or—

Todd Herzog [00:42:03]:
Um, it— well, it was hobby. Now he actually makes pops with me full-time, except for on the weekends where he goes and serves at a restaurant.

Diana Alt [00:42:10]:
Okay, cool.

Todd Herzog [00:42:12]:
So, um, so yeah, um, he— and I was always supportive of it, right? But I was like, I don't know how he does that. I don't know how he— anything like that. So COVID hits, we're all out of jobs, we're all at home, and people are watching a bunch of videos online. And every video I saw were people being artistic and creative, and I was like, I guess we should do something creative, right?

Diana Alt [00:42:36]:
Yeah.

Todd Herzog [00:42:37]:
And, um, Jess and I already collected Funko Pops, and I wanted the Spice Girls, but Funko didn't make the Spice Girls. And so I was like, I'm gonna make my own.

Diana Alt [00:42:50]:
Yeah, that is amazing.

Todd Herzog [00:42:53]:
And that's how it started. I didn't know what I was doing. I just tried things until it worked. And I posted them on Facebook and people loved it. And then somebody was like, hey, could you make one of my son? And I was like, sure.

Diana Alt [00:43:09]:
Okay.

Todd Herzog [00:43:10]:
And I— so I made his son. And then, you know, Sandy K from Survivor Token Chains was like, I want one. And I was like, okay, Sandy. And I made one for her and then it just blew up from there.

Diana Alt [00:43:25]:
So basically, yeah, like basically a member of that few hundred strong Survivor player camp said, let me have one. And that started the Survivor side. Did that immediately take off? Because Everett, a lot of people discovered Survivor during COVID like while we were streaming everything. A lot of people discovered it.

Todd Herzog [00:43:48]:
Yes, I love, I love the COVID fans too, because the COVID fans were hardcore. They watched like 40 seasons and like—

Diana Alt [00:43:55]:
And did nothing but watch Survivor. Like, my work is closed, I got laid off, um, it was pretty impressive.

Todd Herzog [00:44:03]:
But yes, so it, it did take off. Now keep in mind, right, I would make one at a time and it would take me days. Because I was still learning. And so I was immediately working through people asking me to make them for them. And I was like, you know what, this is fun and I don't have anything else going on in my life, so why not, right? Yeah, that was kind of my—

Diana Alt [00:44:28]:
What had you been doing for work or what were you doing for work at that time when you were starting up the art business?

Todd Herzog [00:44:35]:
I was the general manager of an AMC here.

Diana Alt [00:44:38]:
Okay.

Todd Herzog [00:44:39]:
So, you know, movie theaters went—

Diana Alt [00:44:42]:
And that is not an easy job, guys. Like, the GMs in a theater work fucking hard. There's no question about that, huh?

Todd Herzog [00:44:50]:
It was a lot of work. I mean, and like, I've always been such a— like, I work, I work hard. That's how I've always been raised. And so I was losing my mind at home. I was like going crazy. And so to have people want me to make something and then they were going to pay me for it, I was like, absolutely, let me do this. And it, it just— I was joking one day and I was like, it's like Todd's Pop Shop. And it stuck.

Diana Alt [00:45:18]:
It's perfect.

Todd Herzog [00:45:20]:
Yeah, it just, it started to snowball and I was like, okay, well, if this is actually something I'm going to pursue, I have to decide, am I going to go back to my job or is this something worth, worth going for? And so I started to really, like, promote it. And within a couple of weeks, I found myself booked out like 4 or 5 months. Wow. And I was like, okay, well, this is, this is something. And so my husband started to do it as well with me. And so we started to work together, but we were just working out of our living room, just sort of like, you know, on the coffee table. And We were like, okay, well, let's transfer our, our second bedroom into an office and see if we can keep it going. And so within that first year, you know, I— we got an LLC and we, we turned our, our spare room into a giant office and like it just kept going, which—

Diana Alt [00:46:24]:
Well, you bring— I, I think, I think I know why. And this is just my opinion. You're the person that owns the business, but it's just little nuggets of joy.

Todd Herzog [00:46:39]:
Yeah, it is.

Diana Alt [00:46:41]:
It is impossible to be sad when you're looking at some creation that's related to a show you love or a person you love or whatever. You just can't be sad. And there's enough crazy stuff going on. in life that we just like, you spend $100 or whatever, like your pops are of different prices and you get a little joy in the mail and you don't know exactly when you're getting it. 'Cause it like, you do have a backlog.

Todd Herzog [00:47:05]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:47:06]:
You know, it's not like, this is not Amazon Prime. This is, it takes a few weeks to get it taken care of. So I have some logistical questions about the business though. 'Cause like a lot of people that start in art don't manage to find success. Like they would love to be, people that can eat and live indoors off of their art, and they really struggle with it. The business side interests me. So, you know, you got your LLC, great. But one of the things I wanted to know about is licensing.

Diana Alt [00:47:36]:
Like, do you— have you had to work with CBS and all these places, or does it fall under parody, or do you just not talk too loud about it? So the reason— How does that play out for you because of the IP?

Todd Herzog [00:47:50]:
It's definitely interesting because— and there are rules, right? So everything I make is made by hand. Nothing is 3D printed, nothing is mass-produced, and nothing is official. So it is all considered artwork. It is all fan art. Okay, I can sell fan art. If I were to start printing them, right?

Diana Alt [00:48:10]:
Totally different ball of wax.

Todd Herzog [00:48:11]:
Big trouble, big trouble. And so that's one thing a lot of people are like, Well, why don't you go into this and expand? And it's like, I like what I've built, but I also, I think one of the reasons why it's been successful is because each single thing is made by hand. Each thing, I look at every detail to get it instead of mass production, just pumping it out. But that's how I can get away with the licensing is it's all just artwork. Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:48:42]:
Okay. That's, that was, you know, as a person that worked in product in the tech world, I was a product manager in tech. And so we're constantly thinking about what is the contracts, what is licensing, what is all of this kind of stuff. And I know enough about art to be dangerous. Like I'm creative in other different ways, but I do know that you can't just use other people's shit.

Todd Herzog [00:49:05]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:49:05]:
Most of the time. So, and for those of you, I'm going to fangirl a little bit about my experience working with Todd. So when I ordered from, from Todd, first off, from a systems perspective, I'm like, this, this person is taking— he's running a whole business off of the DMs on Instagram, which would drive me crazy. Are you still operating that way?

Todd Herzog [00:49:32]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:49:33]:
You have like a PayPal account and an Instagram and Facebook too. You take stuff off of Facebook too. Do you have any other? And email.

Todd Herzog [00:49:42]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:49:42]:
toddpopshop@gmail.com, guys. Um, so, but when, when I reached out to Todd about this, I wanted 2 things. He was running a sale, buy one get one half off or something like that. I wanted to get, um, a Pop of Sonya from Borneo because my friend Liz that was on season 46, um, had built a friendship with Sonya before she passed away. And then I was like, half price, I'm getting me a Liz. And the degree of detail that you asked me about— what scene do you want? What do you— what do you want in the actual thing? Because it's like, we have a buff, we have the infamous rainbow glasses. There was the cheeseburger incident because of the Applebee's I'm pissed moment. And then tomatoes, because like one random line that she said in tribal council was like, boo, like, boo, tomato, tomato.

Diana Alt [00:50:35]:
I don't even remember what it was about. And I'm like, can we throw some tomatoes in there? Can we get that? And you worked through everything to that degree. So if y'all are considering doing something, whether it's for Survivor, for one of your own friends or a family member, um, you had Dana from The Pit. I was like, oh yeah, quite a few of The Pit recently.

Todd Herzog [00:50:57]:
I'm working on 2 more from The Pit right now. So that'll be fun.

Diana Alt [00:51:00]:
It's a, it's a great show. So you really are taking like the custom and the care to it. And so, you know, And doing it all through Instagram would drive my systems brain crazy because I want a CRM and a spreadsheet or something, something to keep track of it. But—

Todd Herzog [00:51:16]:
I'm not a technical person. I like, I don't, I don't really know how to use any kind of computer system. It's just crazy.

Diana Alt [00:51:24]:
Like, I can log into my Gmail. That's about it.

Todd Herzog [00:51:26]:
Like, I have notebooks and like physical calendar. I mean, that's just how I operate. And so I think that if I were to even try to change, I would lose my mind. So, but it works for me, which is bizarre. But yeah, it is crazy. I know people all the time are like, how are you doing that? Like, I don't know.

Diana Alt [00:51:45]:
How many tops are you making in a year?

Todd Herzog [00:51:48]:
About 1,000 a year.

Diana Alt [00:51:50]:
Geez Louise. Yeah. And do you sell ancillary stuff too? Because you also— you're also doing community stuff. This is another thing that's interesting. A lot of people think about artists, and even if the artist is showcasing their work on Instagram, A lot of times we think about art, art of this kind being kind of solitary, but you've managed to create this whole thing where you're pulling people in in a community feel way, but you're doing lives and raffles and stuff like that. Do you want to tell people about that a little bit?

Todd Herzog [00:52:22]:
Yeah, okay, like I, I probably do too much, but I still love the survivor community. It's, it's how my life kind of transformed, and so I started, uh, like, it's a Survivor group chat on Facebook where people from around the world come and hang out, and then we do miniature challenges and we make friends and, you know, talk about life in there. And then they can win extra tickets into raffles, and then I do raffles that give away custom Pops where people can do things, but it's all part of the Todd's Pop Shop universe. So, you know, there's a Todd's Pop Shop book club and a Todd's Pop Shop movie club.

Diana Alt [00:53:05]:
Oh yeah, what fun.

Todd Herzog [00:53:08]:
It's just this, like, a community as a family.

Diana Alt [00:53:11]:
It's, it's very interesting because a lot of people are not there. They don't grasp onto that. And the hard thing about art is, like, you and Jess making $1,000 a year, like, that's great, but you can only charge so much for a pop. And right. The world is expensive, and so the fact that you figured out these ways to both honor your art, engage with the community, and you know do all this stuff and just kind of become your own little universe—it's there's a Todd fandom out there. It's not just a Survivor fandom. I don't think. I think it's a Todd fandom.

Diana Alt [00:53:45]:
It's freaking awesome.

Todd Herzog [00:53:46]:
Like these people are the best people in the world because like I remember what it was like before I was ever on the show. I remember I got to meet a few Survivor contestants, and the ones that were. nice to me, I never forgot. Yeah. And, and so I promised myself that I would be that way with fans no matter what. Like, I would always be nice to them because it meant so much to me.

Diana Alt [00:54:07]:
And you're doing it 20 years— like, almost 20 years later is wild because I think that is wild. I mean, congrats. That shows though what you said earlier of like, you love people, you, you care about them, etc. Like, yeah, you screwed them over in the game because that's the game. We're going to build, we're going to build hotels on Boardwalk and Park Place. But what is something that you've had people tell you, buddy, you should not be doing that in your business? Because everybody loves to have an opinion about everybody else's business. What's something that you've been suggested you shouldn't do it that way and you just said, forget it, I'm running it my own way?

Todd Herzog [00:54:47]:
Oh, everybody, everybody thinks I'm crazy for not having a website.

Diana Alt [00:54:51]:
So I do think you should buy your domain.

Todd Herzog [00:54:54]:
Um, I mean, you're not wrong, but everybody loves to tell me to get a website. Everybody loves to tell me that I need to hire like extra people. Um, and I'm like, okay, thank you.

Diana Alt [00:55:09]:
What's the reason for not wanting a website? Is it just that you don't want to mess with the technical stuff, or—

Todd Herzog [00:55:15]:
Yeah, I don't, I don't want to deal with it. I feel like it's adding another layer of something that I don't Okay. And so people are like, well, you can hire someone for that. And I'm like, well, I don't want to hire someone for that. I like what I do. You know what I mean? And so people want to go to a website to order directly through the website. And I say, but then that screws me up because I have questions about what you're wanting. And so I have to ask those questions and I have to get pictures of what you want and I have to get the details in order for you to get your product to be happy.

Diana Alt [00:55:50]:
And how much of your business comes through DMs versus email?

Todd Herzog [00:55:54]:
Most, I would say, are through DMs.

Diana Alt [00:55:56]:
Okay. Because like DMs are frightening to me. Like, I hate red bubbles. I can't deal with them. So that's the biggest reason. Like, I'm an inbox zero kind of person and I'm like, I hate red bubbles kind of person. So it's just interesting how different it works.

Todd Herzog [00:56:12]:
I'm happy to do like, you know, I'll take them either way. But it's like, I feel like when someone DMs me, we can chat back and forth really quickly. Yeah. An email, I have to send an email back and then wait for their response. And if we catch each other on DMs, we can respond right there, figure it out and get it done.

Diana Alt [00:56:33]:
Cool. What's something that you would tell somebody that has gone through a rough time? Like, there's a lot of— I work So I work with a lot of people that are, on the surface at least, the opposite of Todd Herzog. They are corporate people. They are oftentimes working in high-level executive roles. And I mean, yes, you're the founder of Todd's Pop Shop, but it's different to work for—

Todd Herzog [00:57:01]:
Absolutely.

Diana Alt [00:57:01]:
A big corporation. And they do feel this pull that they need to be perfect. And now a lot of them are sitting where they've lost their job. because the tech market is a wreck and they feel like down on their heels. What is something that you would tell those people to kind of pull through it?

Todd Herzog [00:57:20]:
I— okay, life is— I, I think I used to feel that way. I, I feel like I used to put on a show for everybody, like, here is Survivor Todd and that is what you're getting. And then me and my story of my drinking and my alcoholism being broadcast to the world showed that side that I didn't want people to know. I was scared to death. And so, like, I avoided people for a long time because I was so scared of it. I was embarrassed by it.

Diana Alt [00:57:49]:
Yeah. And people are embarrassed. They're— the embarrassment and shame, I hear it every single day of, I lost a job or I missed the promotion or whatever. It's so prevalent.

Todd Herzog [00:58:00]:
Yes. And it's like, you're not a bad person because you lost a job. Like, you you're not a failure because of that either. That happens. That stuff happens. And we all have problems, whether people say it out loud or not. We all go through shit. We all deal with it.

Diana Alt [00:58:18]:
Mm-hmm.

Todd Herzog [00:58:19]:
And mine was forced out of me. And at the time when it was forced out of me, I hated it. But I'm so grateful for it now because it showed everybody else in the world that I'm a human. You know, I'm— I have mis— like, problems and mistakes that I've made in my life, but I get to make the choice now of what kind of a person I am. Do I hide all of that stuff and pretend it never happened? No, because that just means that I'm fake.

Diana Alt [00:58:51]:
Yeah.

Todd Herzog [00:58:51]:
Do I talk about it and like what I learned from it? Yeah, that's exactly what I did. And I feel like since I was so close to death, so many times that I have this appreciation for life now where I'm like, I'm, I'm just stoked that I'm alive. Yeah, I, I shouldn't be. And I lost a lot of friends. A lot of my friends didn't make it. And so it's one of those things where I'm like, I'm freaking lucky.

Diana Alt [00:59:16]:
One of the things I tell people to— thank you for sharing all of that, because I think that that perspective is important whether you actually are close to death or not. Like when you're in the middle of whatever crushing anxiety is being thrown your way by life, it can feel just as stressful as a bad medical diagnosis or other things. I like to say the worst shit you've ever been through is the worst shit. It's not a competition. So that's kind of how I look at it. But— Do you want to know what I did though, real quick? Yes, I do.

Todd Herzog [00:59:48]:
This is what changed my life. This is how I did it. And it sounds so cheesy, but it worked.

Diana Alt [00:59:53]:
Oh, my favorite. Because the best advice is often the cheesy advice. Lay it on me.

Todd Herzog [00:59:58]:
It's so cheesy. I had a notebook and I decided to— 2 things. I had to write down every accomplishment I was making throughout the day. So the first one was I showered because I went through days of not showering. So I'd write down I showered. If I did anything productive, I wrote it down. Right. And I called it my celebration list.

Todd Herzog [01:00:22]:
So these are the things that I'm celebrating about today. And then I had a different part of the notebook where any time I was self-doubting or saying something negative about myself or anybody else, I had to immediately write down 3 positive things that I noticed and I couldn't repeat it. And so like the first couple of weeks, it was like, I like my socks. Like, right? Yes. But I didn't stop doing it.

Diana Alt [01:00:50]:
It's like, I don't like Todd yet today, but I like Todd's socks that he picked out. That's—

Todd Herzog [01:00:56]:
Exactly.

Diana Alt [01:00:56]:
That's a start.

Todd Herzog [01:00:57]:
And so— but I did this for, what was it, like 3 to 4 months until I stopped needing the notebooks. And it really— I genuinely think that my mindset changed where I started to see things in a more positive way, even when it felt like there wasn't much going on. But I stopped being so hard on myself, and I stopped being so negative about my position and feeling like I no longer felt like a failure. I didn't feel like I failed at life. I was like, you know what? I stayed alive.

Diana Alt [01:01:32]:
Yeah.

Todd Herzog [01:01:32]:
And now I'm starting over, but I'm doing something about it.

Diana Alt [01:01:35]:
Yeah.

Todd Herzog [01:01:36]:
And so even those people who have had those huge, high corporate positions in life, yeah, you may feel like you are starting over or Like, you don't have a reason. But if you start to point out the things that you should celebrate in life, that you'll start to realize there's a whole lot more of those than the sad.

Diana Alt [01:01:57]:
Yeah. And even if it, even if it is still weighed, like, because sometimes things are very heavy, but if you can find, even if there's 10 bad things for every 1 good thing during a season of your life, that 1 good thing is worth a hell Hell of a lot. So—

Todd Herzog [01:02:14]:
And hold on to it. Grab it and hold on to it. It's honestly, it's one of the— it's the only reason why I'm even still here, because I felt like I had no reason to keep going. No reason. I was like, I failed at life, and everybody looks at me like an alcoholic. And I was embarrassed and ashamed. And I finally said, you know what, fuck them, fuck that, and here we go. Let's, let's make something.

Diana Alt [01:02:38]:
I love that. Um, I have one other closing question. We've kind of, well, we've kind of dropped, um, references to Todd's Pop Shop. Um, everything, like all the ways to get ahold of Todd, which will not include a website because he doesn't have one, will be in the show notes. So, um, right now we're dropping this, it's going to be like August or early September. He's already starting to work on Christmas. There is a wait. to get a pop.

Diana Alt [01:03:06]:
So try to get on top of it. DM him and get on the list and buy something cool from your favorite show— Survivor, Amazing Race, your best friend, whatever that is. But before I go, one of the questions that I ask every single person is, what is the worst career advice that you have ever received?

Todd Herzog [01:03:28]:
Oh man, oh, the worst career advice that I've ever received.

Diana Alt [01:03:33]:
And it can be about your business too. Like, I'm using that loosely about a work life.

Todd Herzog [01:03:40]:
I think, and this is my personal opinion, is stop telling yourself, like, stop looking so far in the future because you don't know what's going to happen. I think the further you look into the future about where it's going to be, sure, you can want to be somewhere, that's fine. But if you expect it constantly and something happens, then you're gonna just look at yourself like a failure.

Diana Alt [01:04:06]:
I love that. I often say to people, like, you know, it's, it's pretty much a meme that you go to a job interview and someone's gonna ask you, where do you wanna be in 5 years? And, you know, my file answer to that for anybody that's looking for an answer is I wanna be making cool stuff with cool people. And I don't really care whatever role suits my skills and talents and interests at the time, that's what I want to be doing. But one thing I point out to people that are in corporate in particular is half the jobs we see posted right now didn't exist 5 to 8 years ago. If they were about AI and data science and all this kind of stuff, it didn't even exist. So how can you say what you want to be doing in 5 years?

Todd Herzog [01:04:47]:
So I think also too, another thing is like they always say, you know, like I'm too old to start this. And I was Yeah, I was 34 when I started doing this. 34 years old.

Diana Alt [01:04:59]:
When you started any art other than art class. That's one of my favorite things because I've had other people that have had artistic interests on the side or as their primary business that have been on the show, and most of them are like, oh, I drew a picture for my mom when I was in first grade or whatever like that. I love that you didn't touch it.

Todd Herzog [01:05:20]:
Really? And I mean, to try something new.

Diana Alt [01:05:25]:
There's, um, I remember growing up in the newspaper, there was Ann Landers and Dee Rabe, and I don't remember which one used to always say that, but people would always write into the advice column and be like, you know, I'm X, I'm, I'm X years old, I'm, I'm 35 years old and I want to go to med school, and by the time I get done with med school and residency, I'm going to be 43. Should I do it? Is it too late? And the answer was always, in 8 years You're going to be 43, right? So, like, you can't stop from being 43. You might as well do what you want to do until you're 43 and beyond. So, I think that's a good end. That is a good note to end on. Thank you so much, Todd, for being on Work Should Feel Good. And we'll see y'all next time. Want some more career goodness between episodes? Head on over to dianaalt.com and smash the big green Let's Connect button to sign up for my newsletter.

Diana Alt [01:06:14]:
Let's make work feel good together. And that's it for this episode of Work Should Feel Good. If something made you laugh, think, cry, or just want to yell yes at your phone, send it to a friend, hit follow, hit subscribe, do all the things. And even better, leave a review if you've got a sec. I'm not going to tell you to give it 5 stars. You get to decide if I earned them. Work should feel good. Let's make that your reality.

Diana Alt [01:06:41]:
Work should feel good. Let's make that your reality.