Diana Alt [00:00:04]:
Hey, Diana Alt here. And this is Work Should Feel Good, the podcast where your career growth meets your real life. Each week I share stories, strategies and mindset shifts to help you build a work life that works for you on your terms. Hey, hey, hey. Good day everyone and welcome to Work Should Feel Good, the show where your career growth meets your real life. I'm your host, Diana Alt, and today my guest Michael Greco and I are going to geek out about career transition tips for federal employees and, well, really anybody that needs to make a move. Michael is a project manager by day and a career coach by night. He focuses on leaving things better than he found them with each human connection.

Diana Alt [00:00:53]:
Using his experiences in higher education, ed tech, healthcare and the government sector, Micro offers a great and broad perspective on navigating intentional pivots in times of uncertainty. He's got an MBA from Loyola University, which it's really too bad you couldn't get into a good school, Holds and Agile Certified Practitioner Certs from PMI and has numerous credentials and accolades focused on career coaching and resume writing. Welcome to the show, Michael.

Michael Greco [00:01:25]:
Thanks for having me. It's exciting to be here.

Diana Alt [00:01:28]:
I'm very glad you're here. So this is a very timely question.

Michael Greco [00:01:32]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:01:34]:
Last week you and I were at a conference that you had to leave early because tech week this week is the performances, right?

Michael Greco [00:01:43]:
That is correct. So last night was opening night of our musical. So I'm in a production of a musical called Next to normal. There's six people in the cast. It's like 90% music. So last week we were running through shows, running through shows. And now we're doing it live this weekend and next weekend. So it's been a blast.

Diana Alt [00:02:04]:
So have you done stage work, like live theater for a long time?

Michael Greco [00:02:08]:
That's actually where I kind of originated in a lot of things. So sixth grade I took a choir class and our choir teacher was like, hey, we want to do Pirates of Panzan, the musical. So if anybody wants to audition, they can audition during class. So I got up and sang and I never sang in front of my classmates before and ended up getting the lead for that. And then ever since then I was in a whole bunch of shows all the way up through high school. I took about a 10 year break and then last year, no, actually two years ago now, there was a musical in the area I lived in when I lived in Chicago and they were doing Spamalot and that was a show I saw on Broadway and I was like, I love this. I should get back into this and my wife was so like, I've never seen this party before. You should go do it.

Michael Greco [00:02:57]:
So then I've been in three shows in the last two years, and they've all been shows that I'm passionate about, not just shows to do them, which there's no issue with that. But for me, I'm like, I have to love the show to be in it, invest it, and spend that time and energy with it.

Diana Alt [00:03:13]:
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So a question I have about that is we're talking about transitions and pivots a lot today in the unexpected. I can't think of very much other than live theater mode. So can you tell us a little bit about the weirdest, wildest thing that's happened to you where you had to adjust in any sort of live performance?

Michael Greco [00:03:39]:
Oh, there's quite a few. We don't have high school.

Diana Alt [00:03:42]:
Just pick one.

Michael Greco [00:03:43]:
Oh, no, I have one. That takes the cake for sure. So high school, I was in the wizard of Oz. I was a cowardly lion. Looked so great. If you find me on Facebook and we're friends at any point, you'll see some great photos from back in the day. But I was a cowardly lion. And we were transitioning from the City of Oz into the forest scene where, you know, Dorothy gets taken away and swept away by the.

Michael Greco [00:04:08]:
By the monkeys, the flying monkeys. And it was taking a long time for the set transition to happen. It was like two, three minutes. We're like, what's going on? Orchestra? Music's just playing and playing and playing. And finally they have everything in place. Curtain up. And you just hear the curtain rips as it rises. Now you put a break, one of the set pieces on the curtain, and it just wore in front of everybody.

Michael Greco [00:04:38]:
And this is open the show. And then the worst thing I had to do was I had to act like it wasn't there. I had to get through this door. The curtain that was ripped was blocking the door. So I end up opening that door, not really thinking about the force behind it, ended up ripping it a little bit more. Then they put a chip clip on it for the rest of the show after that scene. And, you know, couple thousand dollars later, they sewed it up for the next.

Diana Alt [00:05:04]:
Oh, my gosh. That's wild. It's amazing what you can do with the chip clip. It's wild, right? So I have had all my head shots. Virtually every headshot I've ever had done for my business, even before I really was full time in my business, is by the same Guy named Brian Engel. He's amazing.

Michael Greco [00:05:22]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:05:23]:
And he's constantly, like, the first time I went in, and he's, like, busting out chip clips. And like, the other, like, there's like, two or three kinds of clips the man had. He's like, fixing my clothes. I'm like, bro, what are you doing? We're not friends like that. What are you doing? And of course it was all right, but I made him take pictures on the last shoot of me pointing at.

Michael Greco [00:05:46]:
The clips because I was awesome.

Diana Alt [00:05:48]:
I want pictures of, like, what goes on behind the scenes because I think sometimes people think I'm big into, like, we're not perfect, so let's exactly, like, we're perfect, so. So you're a busy guy. Another thing I was curious about, so I was. I did a. I do LinkedIn stalking and other stalking before I bring people on, because you and I know each other from, like, a career certification class that we're in, but we don't know each other that well. I noticed that you were an election judge in Cook County.

Michael Greco [00:06:21]:
I was.

Diana Alt [00:06:22]:
So talk to me about what led you to decide to do that and what you learned from that experience, because that's a whole. Like, you get exposed to a whole different set of people when you're in that kind of role than you do when we're in our, like, white collar, corporate knowledge worker life.

Michael Greco [00:06:41]:
Totally. Yeah. So it was. It was something I did for a little bit when I lived in Chicago, because everybody comes talking about election interference and transparency with voter fraud and all these different things going on. And I sat there and I'm like, this really can't be the case. And I figure people are going to talk the talk, then walk the walk. If you don't know the knowledge, go immerse yourself in it. So there was a sign up for it, and I signed up for it, attended some classes, and I ended up sitting through a couple of different elections to really learn the process.

Michael Greco [00:07:14]:
I got trained on how the machines work, on the different policies and procedures that are supposed to happen when electors come, or if they, you know, you need to close the tabulator at the end of the night, you know, and what's connected to this and that and all these different pieces into there. So I got to do that and really learn the process. And when people were able to come back and maybe make some of those conspiracy theories, I was able to say, well, actually, no. And I have this experience here. This is actually what it's like. And we have our manual that goes along with it, too. So not that I'm going.

Diana Alt [00:07:51]:
You've been working in tech adjacent with your project management, so you kind of know more than the average bear.

Michael Greco [00:07:58]:
Right. So it was interesting because, you know, at this. At this place that I went to for the elections, there were four of us. There are all from different walks of life. Like, I'm a project manager. Then you have somebody who's working as a. They worked at a McDonald's. There was another person that worked at a company for sale.

Michael Greco [00:08:21]:
They were selling, like, novelty items to people. So there are people. And then there was a guy who was retired. Like, there are people from so many different walks of life. And, you know, it seems like something that, you know, a lot more people I think should do because you do get to find the ins and outs of the process. And you're kind of doing a civic duty in that way, which I think kind of relates to our topic today a little bit more.

Diana Alt [00:08:46]:
I had a client named Amy who took an early retirement or like, voluntary severance. She's too young to retire, but she took one. She's living in Des Moines at the time. And this was. Right. She took the package right before the pandemic. And then the pandemic started. Pandemicing.

Diana Alt [00:09:04]:
And she's an extreme extrovert. So sitting at home wasn't working for her.

Michael Greco [00:09:08]:
Right.

Diana Alt [00:09:08]:
She ended up choosing to do two things that I've always thought would be interesting. One, as election judge. And she ended up, because she wasn't working, she was able to devote more time. She ended up actually being like, one the main point person out of the Templars for all of the absentee stuff.

Michael Greco [00:09:27]:
Wow.

Diana Alt [00:09:28]:
Which was interesting to learn about. And then she also did census work.

Michael Greco [00:09:33]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:09:34]:
She did canvassing for the census. Which is funny because you hear people talk about that and they're like, that sounds dangerous. Like, when did we lose the ability to knock on a door? But train them on, like, precautions to take and, you know, how to handle things in different circumstances. I thought it was cool.

Michael Greco [00:09:52]:
I tell you what, though, from what I hear that census work pays really well because we would have people that would come and recruit to us. And, like, you should take a look at that. I'm like, okay. You know, like, I asked her what she made. Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:10:06]:
Because in my head, like, because. Election judge. I've known people that have done, like, the election judge for the day thing.

Michael Greco [00:10:12]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:10:12]:
Which was more normal. Someday I'm gonna do that, too.

Michael Greco [00:10:16]:
I haven't been able to yet, but, yeah, definitely recommend.

Diana Alt [00:10:19]:
Yeah. And they're like, we don't get paid very much. But there's different roles in the whole thing. So very. So you've done a lot of pivoting. Yes. Recently and other times in your career because you've worked across a lot of different industries and roles. What do you consider the scariest pivot that you ever had to make and kind of what, what led to it? Tell the story around that pivot.

Diana Alt [00:10:49]:
Where you were at, what led to it, what made it, you know, exciting, scary, whatever, and where did it take you?

Michael Greco [00:10:57]:
That's such a good question because welcome to the podcast.

Diana Alt [00:11:01]:
Right.

Michael Greco [00:11:01]:
Great questions of pivoting. It's something that seems a lot easier than people make it out to be, right. Because you look at the transferable skills and you think, okay, so I'm a good communicator. That goes well with all of these roles that I'm going for, which is awesome. The scariest one, I would probably say was going from my education technology or edtech experience into the federal government workspace. Because, you know, at first I thought.

Diana Alt [00:11:31]:
Maybe were you in pro? Were you in project and program management and ed tech or were you ed tech?

Michael Greco [00:11:38]:
I started off as more of a people manager. I was what they called a tutor manager for a tutoring company. I had like over 300 people that I supervised. It was a lot. But I also had my project management certification and I started to take on more projects. And that's really when I became like a full on project manager. I was doing the supervision piece and managing projects, initiatives and programs. So all of that continued to grow and transpire at a startup company that, you know, unfortunately had many rounds of layoffs.

Michael Greco [00:12:15]:
And I think that's why the transition I made was a lot more scary because I went from, you know, a great environment that felt really happy, secure, positive to you don't know if you're going to be the next one that's going to be caught. And so it's so difficult and it's emotionally draining. So then looking at the next opportunities that were out there, I ended up talking to this consulting firm that everybody was very kind. They were in business for about five years and they're still in business today. They're a great place to work for, honestly. And they had a position that was open within the Department of Veteran affairs that would be a contract role. So the way that it worked was I would work for the Department of Veteran affairs, but I can choose if I wanted to be a full time employee with the consulting firm or on a specific contract with them 1099 to have a little bit of a difference with it because if you're a contractor or consultant, you can do multiple different things versus full time employee. They have you and they can use you for other things.

Michael Greco [00:13:24]:
I decided to go the full time approach because benefits and also just wanting to be more committed to that one project. But the thing that you always had to wonder comes into light, I think later in our conversation about pivoting is that contract that you're on with the va, anything can happen. Contracts has to get renewed, they can get canceled, they can be renewed for many, many years. The cost on them can change. So could that change your salary? Who knows? Right. So that was a scary pivot because I was going from one environment that I was unsure about to another one that was brand new to me and I was unsure about. So it added to that.

Diana Alt [00:14:06]:
Yeah. And then he went through it again.

Michael Greco [00:14:11]:
I did.

Diana Alt [00:14:13]:
So I want to talk a little bit though about the, the full time versus contractor option. You dig into that a little bit more.

Michael Greco [00:14:25]:
For sure.

Diana Alt [00:14:26]:
The consider. I think a lot of people are confused by that. They don't know what it means. They don't know the pros and cons. All they see is, well, this one has benefits and this one doesn't. Really from my perspective, like it's all clerical because if you understand it correctly, benefits don't matter if you know how to price your contracting services or negotiate what went through your mind and how did you. A little more detail about how you landed that full time was right for you.

Michael Greco [00:15:00]:
Yeah. So definitely in our household. Right. I. My wife works. She was full time, she was hourly and she had a company that she worked for that had benefits, but the benefits were really high cost.

Diana Alt [00:15:15]:
What did she do? She do.

Michael Greco [00:15:17]:
She is a graphic designer. So she works at. She works at Fast Sign. So there's multiple different franchise locations. So we've been there for probably about three or four years at this point. As a, as a head designer. She does a lot of production stuff as well too. So she gets her hands, you know, I work from home and she's in person working with her hands all day.

Michael Greco [00:15:38]:
Yeah, it's definitely like two different stones here.

Diana Alt [00:15:41]:
So basically she had very expensive benefits, I'm hearing.

Michael Greco [00:15:45]:
Yes. Because of the fact with, you know, franchise locations, it's not the main organization that's giving people the benefits, it's those individual locations. So. Oh sure, five to 10 people, that's going to be quite a bit of a cost. Right. Versus the company I worked at before over 500 people, your costs are going to be a lot lower because there's more people using those benefits. So because I was going for a consulting firm, they have, they have benefits because of the fact that they had 30 to 50 people working for them. So their rates were pretty good.

Michael Greco [00:16:20]:
Not as high as my partner's. So immediately looking at that. And then there were also some other pieces too with, you know, retirement and just some of those other considerations that, you know, you can get with the, you know, you can look at getting some of those pieces with the contract. But I just felt that looking at the cost in between my partner and I and what we wanted for the future, it seemed like a more long term benefit for me. And also looking at the scope of work that I was assigned, I was going to be on a team for quite a bit of time. So I wasn't interested in looking at doing other things or other projects or taking on extra work. Right, got it.

Diana Alt [00:17:01]:
You wanted to immerse yourself fully and then do it deeper, which makes a lot of sense if you hadn't ever done it before. It feels riskier to not be a full timer that's dedicated to a certain effort. So.

Michael Greco [00:17:17]:
Right. And I think too with the contract piece, you know, nothing wrong with it because when it comes to it, like you said, it really is just something on paper because contract, you could be on a contract and not have a length of time for that contract to end. I know people who took that route and they never accepted benefits because their partner had way better benefits for them. So they didn't need to worry about that. Or they were able to negotiate their rate a little bit more and have a little more flexibility with that. They were able to take on maybe some more projects, not only with the firm I worked at, but at other firms or other places too. So we even had people that had their own LLCs come in and you know, they would have their own contract with the firm and then they would, you know, do something else too with it. So it really, it's not, you know, a lot of people, I think nowadays hear a recruiter reaching out and giving you a 10 month contract and there's no benefits.

Michael Greco [00:18:15]:
Not really like that. Especially in the consulting world there, there's usually an indefinite period, it's really for tax purposes and what your personal situation looks like. So I think going into that, it was definitely something I considered. And then looking at, you know, my household and family, I'm like, okay, this is the route for me. But there were so many people I mean, it was probably a good 60 to 70% took on the benefit route with full time, you know, being a full time employee. And then 30 to 40% were contracted.

Diana Alt [00:18:45]:
I love that because they actually knew how to deal with it.

Michael Greco [00:18:48]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:18:48]:
Because I just had a conversation with a friend and client earlier today that got a full time offer. And when I was speaking to him, the role, it sounds like they don't actually need a full timer. He's a little weird, like the role's just a little odd for what he's doing. But he does consulting work and I suggested to him he considered actually proposing back that he be a consultant instead because that would give an opportunity for him to have lower risk because he doesn't have to fire other consult like consulting clients and then really see what's actually needed and what kind of ROI can he bring. And then if they want him full time, like maybe it's a whole different kind of role. Like maybe it's exactly what they talked about. If so, who cares? Basically a contract to hire, but more likely, knowing this friend's background, he's going to show like an extreme roi.

Michael Greco [00:19:47]:
Right.

Diana Alt [00:19:48]:
The conversation can change. So we'll see. I can't wait to hear what happens.

Michael Greco [00:19:53]:
Yeah, you're going to have to let me know what happens to you with that because I'm really intrigued by that. And a lot of people don't, a lot of people don't think about like.

Diana Alt [00:19:59]:
Those in those terms. And he's got experience with freelancing consulting. He's in marketing, so he's, he always has something on the side.

Michael Greco [00:20:10]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:20:11]:
You know, because then you can learn, keep learning things and whatnot, even if your company's not into certain technologies or processes.

Michael Greco [00:20:17]:
Right.

Diana Alt [00:20:18]:
So, so you, you were at your consulting firm embedded in the va, and then Doge started doging. So you started, you, you became one of the people that caught up in layoffs since the new Trump administration started in January. So a little bit about how, like what happened to you from an emotional and mental standpoint and also what you observed around you because you've bopped around a lot, but a lot of people haven't. So tell us a little bit about that.

Michael Greco [00:20:55]:
I got a lot to say about it. So I was working with a career consulting client because I, you know, I do that and sometimes I go later in tonight, which is kind of my benefit with it because I have a lot of late night people that like to work on stuff like I do. You know, their partner goes to bed and it's like, well, what do you do? Well, here's a great thing to do.

Diana Alt [00:21:15]:
How's that sound?

Michael Greco [00:21:17]:
What was that?

Diana Alt [00:21:18]:
I'm just gonna build a business. No big deal.

Michael Greco [00:21:20]:
Totally. No pressure, right? Yeah, yeah, you know, it's all fine. So it's funny because some of my clients will be like, well, you know, oh, anytime between nine and five. I know you probably don't want to work after five. And I'm like, no, I'm, I'm available. Like, let's talk. Right. So I was on the phone with a client, helping them with interview preparation, and all of a sudden I saw a text.

Michael Greco [00:21:42]:
This was 11 o' clock at night. Oh man, February 25th. And I saw, hey, did you see our boss's email? I was like, okay, this is really late for an email. So instant anxiety went up and I looked at my phone and there was a very lengthy email that talked about immediate termination. And I was like, what's what, what is this, a prank? Yeah. So I read through it and essentially what it said was we were in a really good situation because we were on a contract. The contract had just gotten extended and we were in this six month renewal period which then was going to lead to usually another five years sign on. Now this contract we were on had been renewed and had been constantly renewed for over 10 years.

Michael Greco [00:22:29]:
So there was a lot, a lot of reliability with it and a lot of positivity from VA officials with the contract. Well, what happened was, is the new administration came in, the new chief of staff at the VA and the secretary came in and in partnership worked with doge, which the crazy thing was DOGE said that the department that I was working part of was the linchpin of government efficiency. Which means like, they liked, they really liked the work that then it said in that email that doge, with sign off from the chief of staff at the VA, cut 540 VA contracts, including ours. So it's not 540 people, it's.

Diana Alt [00:23:14]:
It's 540 contracts, which is thousands of people. Right, right.

Michael Greco [00:23:19]:
So then what that means is in the email said, so what does this, what does this mean? The, our firm that we worked for couldn't take on the impact of so many people being. So that meant immediate termination for anyone and everyone that was part of that contract. Consulting firms don't have investors that they go to when there are layoffs or things that occur. So there was no severance package. There was no, you know, none of that, none of that. So I immediately went upstairs and woke up My wife and told her the news, and we processed very late. And I mean that. It's great to have a partner that is just there for you to support you, especially through those hard times.

Michael Greco [00:24:03]:
Because immediately I'm just thinking, oh, my gosh, my partner has a chronic medical condition. So I'm like, what are we going to do? Right. Medical benefits. It was the 25th of the month. Month, which. Which meant in a few days, that benefit was going to expire.

Diana Alt [00:24:17]:
Yeah.

Michael Greco [00:24:19]:
So I woke up the next day just I was going to get ready to apply for some jobs. I know everybody on our team is going to meet one more time. And my boss had called me and knew that I had a talent with my career consulting and resume writing and said, hey, I want to extend you until about March 7, so that way you can help everybody around with the resume writing.

Diana Alt [00:24:46]:
Was that February that you got the news?

Michael Greco [00:24:50]:
I got the news February 25th.

Diana Alt [00:24:52]:
And you got to stay a couple more weeks to help your people.

Michael Greco [00:24:54]:
And I got to say, yep, so I got to help them. I gave them free resume writing, free interview preparation, all of that, because my, you know, my supervisor at the time was paying me for one extra week. So there wasn't. There is. Or two extra weeks. So, you know, extra paycheck that also extended our benefits until the end of March. So for those dipped into the COBRA sphere, Cobra is insanely expensive. So I was very grateful for that because that meant, you know, I ended up getting a role, like we said at cbs.

Michael Greco [00:25:26]:
Now, our Cobra was only for a month, rather than being two. Possible. So, you know, it was very, very stressful. And I think immediately you feel like a failure because you're like, I don't have these benefits. I had a really great job and a really great opportunity, and it just immediately got taken away. But then you also know the political malice that is behind that. And, you know, at this time, we were seeing cuts all around us from people within the va, within other areas of the government. And then we were seeing court orders saying that people needed to come back, but none of it applies to contractors, because once a contract is, that's it.

Michael Greco [00:26:05]:
So I actually, you know, I do feel for federal.

Diana Alt [00:26:10]:
Which is why governments try to privatize and they try to hide that they're doing it.

Michael Greco [00:26:15]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:26:15]:
Because the same rules don't apply to contractors.

Michael Greco [00:26:19]:
And what was happening quite a bit too with it is that they were saying they're not making cuts to things that are going to support veterans. And the problem is all the work that we did, I Worked on a team that supported veterans fraud and scam evasion. We created websites to help with reporting. We linked with other agencies. We created a call line for veterans to call in and get support. And they were calling in. All of that was just stopped. So there's definitely a lot of, a lot of the political pieces we can go into, but it was just gut wrenching.

Diana Alt [00:26:59]:
So what we could frustrate ourselves all day talking about politics side of it. I'm not, I'll just get mad if I go into that. And we should feel good for you before we get into your transition to your new job.

Michael Greco [00:27:12]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:27:13]:
Were there people that you had worked with that you were helping with their resumes and whatnot? That it had been like 10 plus years since they had to look for a job?

Michael Greco [00:27:23]:
Totally. I had people that they had been with the firm we were at for about, you know, four or five years since the firm started. I had people that had worked with the CEO previously. So it was a lot easier of an end versus you having to have a resume and be a brand new face in the space.

Diana Alt [00:27:41]:
Yeah.

Michael Greco [00:27:42]:
That just graduated and this was their first job and they just finished. So there were a whole bunch of different people that I had to support with it. And I even went up to, you know, LinkedIn optimization and making them look good. They're trying to post jobs and share connections and you know, what I did was I created a whole shell for them that was a whole bunch of different resources for support. So if they needed something like LinkedIn notes to reach out to a recruiter, they could have that. Thank you.

Diana Alt [00:28:13]:
Can we dig into that in a minute? Because the first thing I want to get into is the psyche. Yes. It's like we'll talk about all the tips and tricks, I promise. Because like you're a career coach. We learn from each other, we do stuff. So I want to make sure I'm focused on that. But the psyche of the people that you were working with, especially the people that have been a long time, can you describe what you were seeing because you had your own feelings? Were they the same? Did you see some difference? Did you see more scaredness because you'd only been there for a little while? Like, let's dig into that.

Michael Greco [00:28:51]:
That's such a good question too. You know, there was shock. Everybody was shocked. But they weren't mad at the consulting firm.

Diana Alt [00:28:59]:
Yeah.

Michael Greco [00:29:00]:
You know, our CEO handled it so well and beautifully and he truly cared about each of the people. You know, he was, it was a family business that he was Running. He wanted everybody to feel part of the family. So this was one of the first layoffs I personally experienced where I said, you did everything honestly as well as you could have.

Diana Alt [00:29:19]:
Right.

Michael Greco [00:29:20]:
People were coming in, they were mad at the situation. Right. But they, you know, they have connections and people to reach out to that they were already starting to. Some people looked at it as a way for maybe an extended vacation. We had a few folks who were, you know, who've been there for a little bit, and they're like, you know what? I want to take a month of just not working. I'll collect my unemployment. My last paycheck's coming in the next few days because we were just finishing our last pay cycle. So I surprisingly didn't see anger or resentment.

Michael Greco [00:29:48]:
I think there's probably one person that felt that way, but they disengaged earlier than that. So. But when it came to the people I supported, they were very grateful for the free help and support. They were just looking forward to the next thing. And I would process some of, like, what that looks like. Honestly, it was a lot more motivational. Like you couldn't sit there and be. Feel so upset and angry because you're like, you know what? These people are determined.

Michael Greco [00:30:18]:
This is a great.

Diana Alt [00:30:20]:
I feel like it's really interesting and I love hearing about your observation because the big difference between what you and your colleagues experienced and what we hear from a lot of people is that your company decided to commit to supporting them. So whether they had to go off payroll, but then still have access to Michael, like all those details aside, someone acted like they gave a crap. And the thing that I see from a lot of people, the two big areas where I've seen a lot of people in my inbox were some people that lost federal jobs. Not as many, because I don't work in that space. I've never been a federal employee, so I don't claim that as top expertise. But there is a company called Cerner that was in Kansas City and they got bought out about three years ago by Oracle. So the culture changed a lot. And they've also had a lot of different layoffs and things.

Diana Alt [00:31:21]:
So I had. I worked there years ago. I worked there from 2002 to 2006. So there have been people in my inbox that I worked with almost 20 years ago.

Michael Greco [00:31:32]:
Wow.

Diana Alt [00:31:33]:
Been at the same place and suddenly the rug got ripped out from under them and they don't know what to do. And an interesting thing about that company is how ill prepared, like the way that they Did. Their culture was huge on internal transfer and promotion. But no one ever learned how to communicate outside that company what their value is. They used a lot of weird job titles. They did a lot of stuff that didn't necessarily translate. And unless you went to one of the few directions large healthcare IT competitors. So they felt lost.

Diana Alt [00:32:14]:
And there was also more embarrassment around it because there wasn't something as clear as well like the powers that be just canceled all the contracts. So clearly we can't keep you where a consulting firm. It felt more personal and like, did I do something wrong?

Michael Greco [00:32:31]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:32:32]:
Which is really hard. You and I both have the ability to emp, empathize with different layoff experiences because I went through three layoffs in my corporate career. The first two were during the tech wreck, like early, like 2001, 2002. I was young. My parents who both worked in education for decades, they were in higher ed at the community college level, are like, what did we do wrong? Our kid can't hold a job. You know, like they didn't really mean that, but they were just didn't believe that that could happen because they'd never seen it.

Michael Greco [00:33:08]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:33:08]:
Then in 2012, I got laid off from a company that I was about to quit with no job. I needed a break really bad. So I that severance very happily like.

Michael Greco [00:33:19]:
That is kind of a blessing. In disgust.

Diana Alt [00:33:21]:
Really cool. That was really cool because I showed up one day and they basically laid me off. And then another lady that was in the product management team got laid off too. And she was distraught because she had, she had three kids in college and I was like, wait, I don't have to come here and you're going to give me money?

Michael Greco [00:33:42]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:33:43]:
Okay. For sure. Yeah. So you pivoted again and now you're at CVS Health.

Michael Greco [00:33:53]:
I am.

Diana Alt [00:33:54]:
You've been there for 10 minutes.

Michael Greco [00:33:57]:
Essentially. Yeah. I'm just finishing at the end of the day. It'll be my third week.

Diana Alt [00:34:02]:
Congratulations.

Michael Greco [00:34:04]:
Thank you so much.

Diana Alt [00:34:05]:
You got in there fast. So you did a six week job search. If I remember right, that's correct. It's highly unusual. Like guys, even if you hire Michael or I as a career coach, like neither of us are going to promise you a six week job search. What happens? So talk to us about what drew you to CVS in general. Just about the company. And then let's talk about the process you went through for your job search.

Michael Greco [00:34:36]:
So it's so funny because I kind of tested the process of applying for jobs because as you know, career coaches, we talk A lot about not just going and cold applying, making connections and you know, there's referrals and meaningful opportunities that come that way. You know, that whole approach. I tried that and this was the first day after I had lost my job. I was on LinkedIn. I saw posting, I said, you know what, I'm just going to try off of LinkedIn to apply for this job and see what happens. Obviously the CVS health posting routed to the website. And I got a call the next day and they were interested in interviewing me. And I was like, okay, cool.

Michael Greco [00:35:19]:
So I had this experience and then I had another one that I had interviewed with previously for a different role, a different place, but I had an in with the recruiter. So we talked and you know, I was starting to go on in those two processes. Then as I started going through everything, I started reaching out to more recruiters, had some informational interviews with people. I ended up having about eight to nine roles, including CVS where I was a candidate for Nice. And yeah, so.

Diana Alt [00:35:49]:
And not just, not just like I dropped it into the ether. But you were actively talking and doing various stages of interviews at eight to nine companies and you're in program management, delivery stuff, right?

Michael Greco [00:36:05]:
Yeah, so my. I basically do anything with project management, program management and strategic goals. You know, you hear OKRs, KPIs, you know, performance indicators, I do all of that. So I was looking at a lot of those roles and what started to happen as I had eight or nine of those different options there is. It started to dwindle down. Even though I'm still applying for things and I'm getting a lot of rejections because the market and also Cole applying, that does get you there a lot. There was one thing or another that I didn't have experience wise in my past that they were looking for. So it went down to two opportunities.

Michael Greco [00:36:46]:
One of them was CVS and then the other one was a nonprofit organization but with a more junior role. And I liked my second interview. My first and second interview with CVS I really liked a lot. So as time went on, it was kind of like when you're going in college for like fraternity or sorority life and you're getting matched with an organization and you're like, I really hope it's this one at the end and that it ends up being that way. It just ended up being that way. I remember them saying that the last there'll be a third round interview with like two or three people. And I had that interview on a Friday. So I was like, okay, this is a good sign.

Michael Greco [00:37:21]:
And then I got my offer first thing Monday morning. It was two days after my birthday. So my experience is very untraditional because of the fact that the job I ended up getting was from a cold apply, which doesn't happen often. So this is.

Diana Alt [00:37:40]:
Here's the thing. I think this is incredibly important to talk about because there are a couple of recruiters that I love to follow on LinkedIn. One of them is Amy Miller and the other one is Kristin Fife, I think is her last name. Yeah, and they both are at Google now. Anyway, they talk about how like yes, use your network, but every once in a while Amy in particular will give some stats that says look of the however many people were hired last quarter or month or whatever, this percentage of people came from just applying off the website. And this was referrals and this was internal promotions or whatever. And there are people getting jobs. So I am a big believer.

Diana Alt [00:38:27]:
I have very little patience. Unless we're talking like C suite level, like SVP level. I have very little patience for people that act like you should never apply online. I'm a big believer in multi pronged approaches with a three prong, third party recruiters, applying online and networking 100.

Michael Greco [00:38:50]:
And I tried all of that and that honestly was so helpful because instead of going through research and just sitting and waiting, I had things going on. So I wasn't just sitting and applying all day because I had that three pronged approach and also made it a little bit more exciting because you're talking a little bit more versus just looking at a screen all day.

Diana Alt [00:39:07]:
Yeah, it's really fun and it can be very impactful. I actually did a coaching session with a guy that introduced me to someone where I landed a job after a Layoff.

Michael Greco [00:39:19]:
Oh wow.

Diana Alt [00:39:20]:
2012. And then he went somewhere and got laid off after 12, 13 years. And we reconnected, which is really interesting. So one of the things that I talk about a lot is how we need to be like the Boy Scouts. Like we got to be prepared because when isn't one of the things that made this work for you that you are practicing what you preach to your coaching clients? So you always knew kind of what you would want for a day job if you needed to look. And that's why you recognize the CVS role. Like is am I?

Michael Greco [00:40:01]:
No, I mean I always have a phrase.

Diana Alt [00:40:04]:
If you don't know, then you just like search indeed for your job title.

Michael Greco [00:40:08]:
Yeah, I found indeed. And this is no shade on indeed, but helpful with it. The way that I used indeed in 2020 versus 2025 was so different because indeed now is more AI optimization. And you know, they show you the first couple of roles that are of most interest and then they show you a lot of the roles that are the same and always posted, even when you refresh your search daily. So I did have a couple hits on Indeed, but a lot of them was, you know, reaching out and connecting with people looking in multiple different channels. I did look a lot on LinkedIn just because I'm on there every day. So that was really easy to do. But the big thing that helped, especially with this opportunity here, even though it was a cold apply, I kept myself marketable.

Michael Greco [00:41:01]:
And this is something I tell my clients all the time. Do something to keep you in that rear view mirror where they can see you so you start to go in the front seat. So even though the people didn't know me and I had my first interview with them and they're like, yeah, we're interested in moving you forward, sending that thank you email. And also I put in something in there that they hadn't seen before. I actually took all my recommendations on LinkedIn, including some for my government clients, and I made that into a one pager and said, so then I said, I know that you got to hear about me and my future visions. Here's what people have said about working with me.

Diana Alt [00:41:36]:
Oh, wow.

Michael Greco [00:41:37]:
I met with someone new at CVS or any place I interviewed with. I was able to say, let me pull this out of the back pocket and show you what people are saying about my work to validate it.

Diana Alt [00:41:47]:
That's a really cool idea. And one of the things that I, I feel like I, I like to make content like people, whether they're business owners or whether they're employees, often struggle with visibility. And I, in my, in my work as a career coach, I've not done a great job of making bubbling up my recommendations. And so like I'm going to be looking at that. Number one, I need to refresh some recommendations. Yeah, I've done it in a while, ask for any. But I think that's such a cool idea. So I'd love it if, if you don't mind sharing what that pager looked.

Michael Greco [00:42:27]:
Like or to you. Definitely.

Diana Alt [00:42:29]:
Amazing. And you should consider making like a template for that to give to people.

Michael Greco [00:42:36]:
So that is exactly what I have in the process right now too. Maybe a little selling point in the future, but that's actually something that I will be providing to my clients as well because I do think it Is very impactful to have just something extra. I think your email is great. Never take that for granted in any way, shape or form. And then having something a little extra that's new to have you sign pack, honestly it's refreshing. And one day that's probably going to be an old practice because more people start to use it over time and over the years. But just those little things and it's nice because you get the visual. You don't have to just read through a recommendation letter that's a page or three pages and all text.

Diana Alt [00:43:17]:
Yeah, I like the one paragraph of what he's great at. So when you what what were you targeting when you were thinking I want this next the thoughts that were going through your mind before you ran across that CVS Health, what were you thinking about in terms of title industry pay, like that kind of stuff. The reason I'm bringing this up is because knowing that is the magic that led to you being able to immediately see that immediately apply and land the job so quickly. So tell us what that targeting looked like because then I think other people can apply that to their own situation.

Michael Greco [00:44:04]:
It's such a good question too that you asked that because there are a lot of different factors and considerations. I was open for any of the remote hybrid and even in work experiences but obviously my preference was remote. So if they asking what my preference was, I was like let's stay from home. I literally just built this wood wall over here to my left and then to my right I have office doors I just put in. I'm like, I want to like use those for the home office now come on. But when it came down to it, obviously something that offered benefits was going to be important. You know, that was something that was a non negotiable for me. Something that offered, you know, retirement for example, or just any other piece of that consideration was important when it came to the salary considerations.

Michael Greco [00:44:49]:
And this will lead to the job piecing bit of it. I told myself, depending on how like I say desperate as like dramatic. I wouldn't say I was desperate but I wanted to be very logical and think okay, looking at my past experiences, they're going to be looking at a trajectory. They're going to see that I started in one place and that I keep on going maybe upward, but they're going to see this little, this tidbit right here, maybe have questions. Right. So I looked at the financial situation I was in with my partner as well and I said if I were to take this exact amount of money that I made in this last role, then I would be okay, right. I'd still be able to pay the bills, I'd still be happy financially. I gave myself a little wiggle room.

Michael Greco [00:45:36]:
So if I wanted to go up higher and I saw something that was higher, I could be like, great, this is my number I'm going to start with. But if I can go push higher, great. I also gave myself, how low would I go underneath that initial number?

Diana Alt [00:45:51]:
Because so important it is. I work with a lot of people. I've worked with people that make 500k and they'll live in like Houston, you know, it's not like Silicon Valley.

Michael Greco [00:46:04]:
No.

Diana Alt [00:46:05]:
I've worked with people that were trying to exit oil and gas because they just retired of the industry and they were making 500ks because they were consultants in oil and gas in Houston.

Michael Greco [00:46:16]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:46:16]:
Petroleum engineering backgrounds and, and the like. And they often got stumped when I said, well, what's your walk away number? Yeah, how much do you need to have a good quality of life? And if you don't figure that out, then you just think the lowest I can take is what I had. But when you're earlier in your career because you're what, early 30s, 30 something.

Michael Greco [00:46:44]:
I just turned 30 about a month ago.

Diana Alt [00:46:47]:
Okay, so you're 30. The way that you look at comp at 30 is different than the way you look at it at 40 or 50. And most of my people that I work with are like late 30s to early 50s. So yeah, it's a big deal because asking people that are trying to go up on comp, what could you handle? And sometimes I ask it as, what can you handle for two years?

Michael Greco [00:47:15]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:47:18]:
If you can go and just make sure that you are employed, networking, using your skills, growing your skills, even if the pay is not wonderful, if you can handle it financially for two years, then you know that you can start figuring out what moves do you need to make either in your, in your, you know, company that you're currently at or afterwards.

Michael Greco [00:47:41]:
Right. And that kind of led to the titling piece too, because there were some roles that I looked at that I'm like, okay, this is just exciting. It's like at the same level I'm at as a project manager. So then I was able to take my range and think, okay, they have the lower end on there, but maybe some room for meeting in the middle or going higher. Am I good with this? Am I not? It was able to help me understand if I want to walk away or not. So there was that pronged approach of looking at project manager roles, program manager roles, and because I had an experience supervising people, I did take a little dip into hr. But preferably HR roles blended with practice management.

Diana Alt [00:48:17]:
Right. That was like my hris program manager kind of thing would have been.

Michael Greco [00:48:22]:
Exactly. There's actually a role that I had applied for that was a. It was a human resources, project management team lead. And I was like, okay, literally all the things that I would love. It didn't work out, which was okay. But I essentially looked at that and what was really important for me to understand was if it was increased responsibility, then I could think, okay, so I have my base number now. I want to try to aim a little bit higher and go 11% more than what I made in the previous role, knowing that it's going to be a step up in that trajectory. Usually if you feel like it's good with the company and you use your salary negotiation skills, you could probably get more than that.

Michael Greco [00:49:07]:
But it gives you a nice baseline at least to think about the what if piece. So doing all of that and having it more concentrated, I feel like that helped me get my foot in the door more because I was able to really see project management roles and then see who worked there, what the connections look like. And that's a piece that I feel for anybody pivoting from federal work, that's kind of the first thing you need to start with Anybody pivoting in general, but especially when it's more competitive now that's like the golden gate to start.

Diana Alt [00:49:36]:
Yeah. Project and program management is so hard because number one, it is an area that's been hit. All the things that start with P, everything. Program management, program project management and product management have been hit by hard. And it's because the way that companies think is, especially product based companies is like someone's got like the code guys and so they tend to start looking at the people that aren't actively writing code first, which for many reasons is dumb. But that's not what we're going to solve today.

Michael Greco [00:50:09]:
No.

Diana Alt [00:50:10]:
So let me ask you this.

Michael Greco [00:50:13]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:50:13]:
What do you feel like are the top few mistakes that, whoops, I'm putting another banner up. I like to just rotate. What do you feel like are the top two or three mistakes that people are making if they were in that federal. Federal contracting world that are trying to pivot into private sector? What are you.

Michael Greco [00:50:38]:
Oh, I got so many. So if I'm looking at the top two or three, number one, not fully understanding applicant tracking systems, for us, it feels like it's so basic. Right? But when you're thinking about a federal resume. Federal resume is, if you're doing it right, it should be applicant tracking compliant, because you're just basically taking a Microsoft document, having some headers, and writing paragraph after paragraph or phrase after phrase. Now, what happens is those people will then take the documents, and then they will convert it into a resume that has multiple tables, multiple columns, and they think it's because you need to make it look a lot more prettier, more beautiful. But then they start applying for roles, and they're not getting hits, and that ends up being the reason why. Because nothing is being tracked in that way. You're okay.

Michael Greco [00:51:37]:
You're good. Gotta love the dog's barking.

Diana Alt [00:51:47]:
If the dog's gonna bark, we need to see the dog.

Michael Greco [00:51:51]:
Okay, that's perfect, because she's gonna take a second. Let me just grab her. We'll make her part of the fun. Here, come here.

Diana Alt [00:51:59]:
It'll be great. People like dogs, so if they're gonna bar. Oh, hello.

Michael Greco [00:52:03]:
Yeah, this is Bella. So she's the. She's my Pomeranian. I rescued that.

Diana Alt [00:52:11]:
Rescued. Thank you for being on the podcast. You are the first dog that's been on the podcast.

Michael Greco [00:52:15]:
Aren't you so honored.

Diana Alt [00:52:17]:
You're definitely the first. I should have had Angie Callan. Our friend Angie said:1. I should have had her bring Taco Cat.

Michael Greco [00:52:25]:
Oh, that would have been.

Diana Alt [00:52:27]:
But I didn't, so my God.

Michael Greco [00:52:30]:
Anyway, you can tell she's passionate about applicant tracking systems, so she has.

Diana Alt [00:52:36]:
Here's what. She did not like the term ATS compliant. That's what actually happened. She went nuts because it's not really a thing. So. But I hear what you're saying, because, like, in a federal resume, this is something private sector need know if, like. Yeah, when the federal government someday hires people again, if the job description says, must be able to tie shoelaces, you.

Michael Greco [00:53:01]:
Have to list right.

Diana Alt [00:53:03]:
Entire shoelaces. We don't just assume that because you're 50 years old that you can tie shoelaces.

Michael Greco [00:53:07]:
Exactly.

Diana Alt [00:53:08]:
Also, this is the one that just kills me because my pet peeve is a resume that says good written communication skills. Like, if you have to tell me, you clearly don't. This is kind of my take. But land, you have to do that now for your federal contracting job. For that job, did you have to do more of a federal format resume or a private sector format?

Michael Greco [00:53:31]:
I did not. I actually got to do a private sector resume because it was a consulting firm, and they presented the resume to the Head of the contract who was, you know, they were also a consulting firm that was overseeing the whole thing. So that made it a lot easier. But what I did was I worked with, you know, federal employees at the VA who had a lot of experiences. So it wasn't like I, you know, didn't get my feet wet in there because I would, you know, take a look around and see what that looked like and get into there. And, you know, I think that's the biggest thing with the pivots is that people are going to go in and make assumptions. They're going to be like, everything has to be ATS compliant. Everything has to be, you know, with the skills in this way or that way.

Michael Greco [00:54:14]:
And I think what it really comes down to is some of that strategy piece. But being a little bit more precise with communication, I think is really what it comes down to because they are looking for you to cover those minimum qualifications plus a little bit. So you need to be able to do that clearly and not just have that assumption. And I think that's what happens is you have people coming out of the federal workspace going, how do I cut down this 10 page federal resume to a one or two pager?

Diana Alt [00:54:42]:
The other thing that I see happen a lot is.

Michael Greco [00:54:46]:
You're good.

Diana Alt [00:54:48]:
Oh, good.

Michael Greco [00:54:50]:
She is a little feisty, as you can tell.

Diana Alt [00:54:52]:
It's hilarious.

Michael Greco [00:54:58]:
Bella. I'm so sorry, Diana.

Diana Alt [00:55:05]:
Okay. We can edit a little if we have to, which I'm too lazy. I won't do. Who am I kidding? What I was gonna say too is I see from people that are in federal related work and in academia.

Michael Greco [00:55:19]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:55:19]:
They think that the most important thing is the degrees. And those are so certification heavy. Whereas in most of the private sector. Yes, they might want that. Like, degrees are really a thing in our, in the tech industry that you and I both from certs are nice.

Michael Greco [00:55:45]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:55:46]:
If you don't have results to go and you don't have like kind of a story arc for your resume, how you talk about yourself, then you're going to be in trouble. So I think for me, what I see as a secondary mistake is relying too much on those heavy credentials.

Michael Greco [00:56:06]:
Totally. Or the phrasing and the words and acronyms. You have to be able to say, this is the result of what I did. Which is another thing I've had to work on with clients too, from pivoting in that space to say, okay, so you say that you budgeted and you say that you did this, but what are the numbers? How much of this did you do that makes such the world of difference.

Diana Alt [00:56:26]:
Yeah. I had a really interesting client that I just did a resume for that. She worked at IBM for years and took early retirement from there a few years ago. And then she found out she sucks at retirement, so she ended up going back and getting an associate's degree in healthcare tech.

Michael Greco [00:56:45]:
Oh.

Diana Alt [00:56:47]:
And so she's just looking for, like, an analyst role. You know, she was a principal architect, like, earlier in her career.

Michael Greco [00:56:53]:
Wow.

Diana Alt [00:56:54]:
I had to go back and say, like, that's a. That's for a lot of people and there's all this stuff and what are we doing? And in the case of this person, this real story was like, I got retired, and number one, getting retired. But number two, I had, like, health care experiences.

Michael Greco [00:57:15]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:57:16]:
I want to un. Retire and take my healthcare experiences and apply them to this kind of role. That's a powerful story. Come a lot of different things, but a lot of people are so into. This is the exact task. And I have to write that I tied my shoelaces. And they, you know, they assume that everyone's gonna think if one certification is good, three or better, so.

Michael Greco [00:57:40]:
Right. And, you know, you bring up such a great point with that too, because at the end of the day, a lot of people don't understand there's such power with branding and your story. And I think there's going to be a lot of similarities with the stories of how people are being caught or what this next step looks like. So I think there really is a great opportunity to have a really specific impact within your story that can stand out amongst that crowd. And at the same time, you still have some of the successes, but you look to the future of what you want to do. And I think that will also be helpful in this.

Diana Alt [00:58:13]:
Yeah, I think I refer to that like something I've started to distinguish in working with my clients is the difference between the career narrative that you want to tell and the stories that support it.

Michael Greco [00:58:28]:
Exactly.

Diana Alt [00:58:29]:
Because you tell different stories all the same. This is what transferables is about, and we don't talk about it enough. But when you have a career narrative that is around. I'm a consultant, skilled in doing VA things at the VA for the effectiveness of serving veterans and being a good steward to a federal government budget. That is a whole different thing than, I want to go to CVS Health and help them make money.

Michael Greco [00:58:56]:
Right.

Diana Alt [00:58:57]:
Products that we create or cut costs.

Michael Greco [00:58:59]:
Whatever the case may be.

Diana Alt [00:59:00]:
So definitely we are close to being done. But what I'm gonna do is a little quasi Waiting round. I have a few questions I've been asking a lot of people. All right, so we'll do that and then you can let people know, like, is there anything going on that you want them to join? Etc.

Michael Greco [00:59:25]:
Rod. Situation is my wife just went to go take them away. So we're good.

Diana Alt [00:59:31]:
Mrs. Michael. So the first thing is, what is the worst piece of career you've ever received?

Michael Greco [00:59:39]:
Who. If they. There's a couple. There really is. The one that I would probably say that I got was something related to age and just saying you should dress like you are older, so that way they don't underestimate you for being a younger professional. I felt like that was like one of the most inauthentic pieces of advice I've ever received. When I started off in the field of, you know, project management especially, people would look at me and think, oh, you're a younger person, so you don't have as much experience and you can't do these bigger task. And I'm like, oh, you don't think I can do it? Watch me.

Michael Greco [01:00:26]:
Yeah, exactly. I love that because I will probably have a beer tonight. So that was probably the worst. And I love to prove people wrong from there.

Diana Alt [01:00:35]:
Cool. What is a personal habit that you have that has helped you be successful?

Michael Greco [01:00:44]:
I am a list person and a lot of people will probably say that, but I have so many sticky notes. So if I can clear a sticky note off of my desk that I'm like, okay, I did the top task and I actually do a little bit of. When I'm starting to feel stressed out, I do a little bit of meditation just for five minutes. I just sit and do some breathing. I go into the quiet space and that helps to, like, clear my mind. So if you don't do that, I highly recommend it.

Diana Alt [01:01:08]:
I. I'm a big fan. Like, Headspace girly right here. So sometimes it's three minutes, sometimes it's.

Michael Greco [01:01:14]:
20 minutes, but whatever.

Diana Alt [01:01:16]:
You need something most days. And when I start to feel like, cranky, usually it's because I need to do that.

Michael Greco [01:01:23]:
Yep, same.

Diana Alt [01:01:24]:
What is something you've changed your mind about recently?

Michael Greco [01:01:30]:
Yeah, I. I've changed my mind mostly about feeling hopeless when it comes to current world events, because this is important. Lay it on right. It is. For sure. I think when it comes to just what's going on, a lot of people just feel like you can't do anything about it because everything's happening so fast. But I think we're seeing just slight changes that keep on occurring and People being active and standing up and saying, no, I don't like this. I don't want these things to happen.

Michael Greco [01:02:09]:
And you know, there are some powers that come with that and there's some different actions that happen because of it. So. So I felt very, very hopeless, especially after having my role cut. But now I've taken more of that approach of let's be more positive and let's not just let somebody else win.

Diana Alt [01:02:27]:
Yeah. I think that deciding that you've already lost.

Michael Greco [01:02:33]:
Yep.

Diana Alt [01:02:34]:
Is. That's the thing that is the most frustrating for me.

Michael Greco [01:02:38]:
Totally.

Diana Alt [01:02:39]:
Like I only have so many hours in the day and I have some personal things going on that are pretty time consuming right now.

Michael Greco [01:02:46]:
Totally.

Diana Alt [01:02:47]:
But that doesn't mean that I will always be in a space where I've been up in my Congress critters business. You know, maybe not like some people have time to, but it's making a difference. Especially as Congress figures out, oh yeah, our powers are being usurped. So I see, I see some hopeful.

Michael Greco [01:03:10]:
Movements happening as I tell people one action is better than none.

Diana Alt [01:03:14]:
Yes, yes. Anything is better than nothing. What is a misconception? This is my last question. What is a misconception that people have about your work? And if you want to do one for like the project management side and one for the career coaching side, that would be totally fine.

Michael Greco [01:03:29]:
Project management, I think they say, oh, if you have the certifications that you know every little thing about project management. The thing is here's, here's the honest truth. If you ever go for a project management certification, for anybody watching, there's the tests that have the very standardized process and then you go to a company in a place and not what I'm talking about in general, but just anywhere you go. Everybody does project management differently.

Diana Alt [01:03:52]:
Yeah. And I've never, I've never worked in an organization that did earned value management, which is central to PMI's methodology. I never got the PMP because I was like, I went through the boot camp and I was.

Michael Greco [01:04:09]:
That's interesting too because I have the PMP and I have the Agile and everybody says the Agile is easier. I did better on the actual pmp. I scored in one of the highest brackets you can get with it. But then the Agile, I barely passed. So it's also like, you know, because of the fact that.

Diana Alt [01:04:26]:
No joke. And when people talk to me about Certs in Agile, I wish that one was more well known.

Michael Greco [01:04:34]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:04:34]:
Because it's, it's, it's methodology agnostic.

Michael Greco [01:04:39]:
Yeah. And agile is going to Be talks.

Diana Alt [01:04:41]:
About different methodologies, but you get the idea it's not just from or just Kanban or whatever. So I'm a fan of that. What about a misconception in the career coach world?

Michael Greco [01:04:49]:
I think people and I had one or two people look at me and go, oh, you're a part time career coach. You know, so there's some people that get in there. Not a lot, but there are some that get that air that because I do that I don't have the same value. When I have really been able to look at my client base and see the amount of satisfaction that they have in their experience. And knowing what I'm doing is the right path. And even though I'm dipping in a few areas, it doesn't mean I'm overtaking or not being able to handle what I can do. I know my limits as a human and a person and if I can stick to that while also committing to a high level of work for those people, I'm okay with being a strong part timer than being somebody who overstretches themselves and not being able to handle that. And for people that are in this field, I want to be one of those voices that says you can do it part time and you can do it well.

Michael Greco [01:05:49]:
You could still be a committed individual, you could still have your other interests and if you want to go full time one day, great. And we have so many people that are down that path that it's amazing. Right. And then if you do want to stay part time, that's also okay too. And there's a way to do it. And there's a right way to do it too.

Diana Alt [01:06:05]:
Yeah, I was part time for years. Yeah, I jumped into full time and actually when I left my corporate job in 2016. 20. 2019, not 2016. I can't believe it's been six years.

Michael Greco [01:06:20]:
No worries.

Diana Alt [01:06:20]:
I didn't think that I was going to do coaching full time. So my initial. Well, first I rested for a few months because I just totally. And then for about a year and a half I did technology consulting. Over half of my revenue in 2020. And then at the end of the year I had the option to kind of pursue extending that with a client or not do it. And I just decided I didn't want to do it anymore.

Michael Greco [01:06:50]:
So that's fair.

Diana Alt [01:06:52]:
I'm just gonna give up all that income. But I'm glad I made the pivot because I like and I'm really good at product stuff. Like I could definitely go in and still do. I could Do a product strategy consulting thing or whatnot. I can draw on a whiteboard with the rest of them. That's one of my things. So I love that. I did it part time for a long time, just a few clients a year.

Diana Alt [01:07:16]:
But I was good at it and I. I'd argue if anybody gives you flack about what you're doing, here's my take on why it's a value add. Number one, you actually know how it is to try to make money.

Michael Greco [01:07:31]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [01:07:31]:
You might not be trying to feed the whole house with it.

Michael Greco [01:07:34]:
Right.

Diana Alt [01:07:34]:
People that criticize in that way have never had a lemonade stand, let alone run an adult business. Number two, you are constantly thinking about how to position people and ideas and results so that other people can quickly understand them. Doing that for clients makes it a lot easier for you to express. No, really, this risk that the engineers raise actually is a real thing. They're not just complaining.

Michael Greco [01:08:05]:
Exactly.

Diana Alt [01:08:06]:
Something that software engineers or software quality people get kind of. They get kind of painted with that brush all the time, so. Well, that was great. Before we go, what are you working on? Like, is there anything. I'm going to put your website back up, see about Greco career coaching. Is there anything else that you want people to know about, any events coming up or tools to share or anything like that?

Michael Greco [01:08:34]:
Definitely. So in the near future, happy to share that. I'm going to be starting an initial initiative that will be a month long. It's going to be called Resumes for Rescues. So see a little bit more information on that. But essentially what I'm going to be doing is focusing on what my writing package is and donating a portion of that to a local animal rescue because that is. It's something that's really important to me. So I'll be looking to do that.

Michael Greco [01:09:00]:
Currently debating maybe doing that for all packages, just depending on how, what people are feeling about that. But I truly want to give back and just show gratitude because I'm so grateful for not only where I'm at in life, but for the people and the support and the clients that trust me and want to get back to a really good cause. I feel like that's such an important thing. So be on the lookout for that on, you know, my website, my LinkedIn. Also going to be adding an Instagram soon as well to kind of reach a new audience there. So, you know, doing a little bit of things. I can't do TikTok, I can't do that. I just can't do Twitter.

Michael Greco [01:09:38]:
But. Right. I'm like, you got to know what your strengths are. I'm. I'm an Instagram fiend.

Diana Alt [01:09:44]:
So like, okay, well, good for you. I love that. And so if I'm, I'm assuming I. I was playing on your website earlier and I saw that you have like sign up for my newsletter. So I'm assuming if they go to your website and sign up for your newsletter, they will hear here whenever that resumes comes out.

Michael Greco [01:10:01]:
That is correct.

Diana Alt [01:10:02]:
Well, thank you so much, Michael. I really appreciate it.

Michael Greco [01:10:06]:
Thank you.

Diana Alt [01:10:08]:
And we will, we will chat again soon, I'm sure. Not quite sure what to put on your resume or what to leave off. Grab my free resume Don'ts guide so you can stop guessing and start standing out. Head on over to dianateaches.com to get yours today. And that's it for this episode of Work should feel good. If something made you laugh, think, cry, or just want to yell yes at your phone, send it to a friend, hit follow, hit subscribe, do all the things. And even better, leave a review if you've got a sec. I'm not going to tell you to give it five stars.

Diana Alt [01:10:47]:
You get to decide if I earned them. Work should feel good. Let's make that your reality.