Diana Alt [00:00:04]:
Hey, Diana Alt here. And this is Work Should Feel Good, the podcast where your career growth meets your real life. Each week I share stories, strategies and mindset shifts to help you build a work life that works for you on your terms. Hey, hey, hey. Good morning everyone and welcome to Work Should Feel Good, the show where your career growth meets your real life. I'm your host, Diana Alt, and today my guest David Hannan and I are going to dig into how job seekers with ADHD can change up their approaches to work with their unique brains. David and I have known each other for several years on LinkedIn. He's the owner of Pathfinder Coaching, where he coaches mid career professionals with ADHD to build clarity, confidence and job search strategy in a way that works for their brain, not against it.

Diana Alt [00:01:01]:
He's originally from the UK and David's path was definitely not linear. After struggling in school, he joined the Royal Air force at age 20 and later built a successful recruiting career. Then finally was diagnosed with ADHD in 2024, a moment that changed everything and put him on a mission to. To help others navigate a job market that often ignores how their brains think and work. Welcome to the show, David.

David Hannan [00:01:30]:
Hey, Diana.

Diana Alt [00:01:31]:
Hey.

David Hannan [00:01:31]:
So happy to be here.

Diana Alt [00:01:32]:
I am. I gotta tell you what, when I decided to do the show, which I decided in January, I was gonna do it and that I was just gonna like, it's. It's not even on libson yet. I decided to start it as a live stream so that I would just take action because I have a sash that says overthinker for good reason behind me. So I wanted to make sure I didn't overthink it and I started brainstorming people that I wanted on the show. And you're, you were one of the first five people that I wrote down because I think this whole. Right. Yeah.

David Hannan [00:02:07]:
Thank you.

Diana Alt [00:02:08]:
Aren't you so.

David Hannan [00:02:09]:
Yeah. Look, it feels nice every time I hear that. So, yeah. Thank you.

Diana Alt [00:02:12]:
Wow. Well, it's, it's. I think I have had an I am not adhd, which is funny because people try to tell me I'm in denial. They're like, you're an entrepreneur. Like, how are you not adhd? But I don't have adhd, but I've had a number of clients over the years that have adhd and I want to learn more about it, so I want to dig back into early. Like, way before you knew that you had adhd, though. What in the world was it like to be in the Royal Air Force ADHD when you were 20. And you didn't even know that was going on.

Diana Alt [00:02:48]:
Like, how did you feel about that? Did you, did you ever feel like you were out of step with the rest of the people? Discuss that a bit for us.

David Hannan [00:02:59]:
Pun intended. Out of step, not pun intended.

Diana Alt [00:03:03]:
Whatever.

David Hannan [00:03:04]:
It's. I don't know, it's. There's a little story that I tell. First of all, hello everybody. Thanks for the intro, Diana. It's a great question. So I tell a little story when I speak to prospective clients for the first time. One of the questions I asked them was like, what did you want to be when you grow up? And I let them kind of think about it and I give them a bit of context in terms of my background.

David Hannan [00:03:24]:
So when I was a kid, my mom took my brother and I to a local air show. Like, you guys have got the Blue Angels here in the us we have the Red Arrows and we go and see this, you know, aerial display and we go every year. And I'd like just marvel at like the military, not specifically Air Force, and I like hang out around the planes and I'd sit in the cockpits and, you know, my entire childhood I'd convinced myself that I want to fly, gotta fly planes. Undiagnosed, untreated, ADHD as a kid. Again, I'm no expert on this, I'm not an adh, I'm not a doctor. I'm still trying to figure out my own kind of future path. So I just want to kind of caveat by saying that. But I'd always convinced myself that I wanted to fly planes.

David Hannan [00:04:10]:
And then, you know, Fast forward to 52 years old, which I turned last year, got my diagnosis in August, and my psych and I were talking about my career. We got into the military and I told her what I thought and she said, what if it wasn't you wanted to be a pilot? What if it was a lack of order and structure and discipline that your brain craved for because you had undiagnosed and untreated adhd and you'd been exposed to that kind of element of structure, order, routine, discipline with the, the raf, which is the Royal Air Force. I was like, my God. Yeah, maybe so I enjoyed it, Diana. I think naively I joined the military to see the world, like a lot of know folks do. My father in law is a Vietnam vet, World War II veteran, a Vietnam vet, sorry. And it's, I thought, you know, I wanted to see the world and I didn't. I spent four and a half years on the same airbase in southern England.

David Hannan [00:05:09]:
I got bored pretty quickly. Shocker.

Diana Alt [00:05:13]:
Wow.

David Hannan [00:05:13]:
So, yeah, it was fun. You know, I think I look back and like, I think my most enjoyable part was basic training, to be honest. Like just 42 days of, you know, 5am mornings and brutality through like 11pm a constant cleaning and constant, you know, ironing shirts and stuff like that. So I love the camaraderie of it, of it all. And I really did like the rules and regulations.

Diana Alt [00:05:39]:
My brother has autism and I remember from that he's five years younger than me and I remember from the time that I was very small, my mom explaining to me that routine was really important for Philip and we didn't have like strongest routine in our family. Like my dad was a farmer and a teacher, which means he was gone a lot. And my mom was wrangling three children, all three of which were like somehow neurospicy because my older brother and I were gifted. My younger brother has autism. Like, it was my bless my mother, you know. But any kind of structure that we could put around my younger brother was helpful. So I'm not surprised that that was helpful to you.

David Hannan [00:06:27]:
I enjoy, I enjoyed that part tremendously. Yeah. Thanks for taking me back. That's, you know, 33 years now.

Diana Alt [00:06:35]:
Yeah, it is. A minute doesn't is a minute one thing. Just me observing you. Like we've been friends on LinkedIn for a while, but. But it's like the DM and comment kind of friends every time we tried to get like on a zoom like this we're doing today, like it didn't work out or everybody was busy. So great to actually talk like this to you thing I did notice though, when you announced finally that you had adhd, like some things clicked for me because I watched you as a coach go through a few niches, which on one end was cool because you were experimenting and discarding and experimenting and discarding. And what was behind that because you went through a few different things. Was that really more.

Diana Alt [00:07:23]:
Was it more about the experimentation or was it about you? You would get bored. Like, tell me about that. You're wandering through a few coaching nich.

David Hannan [00:07:34]:
Nicholas, another great question. Yes to a little bit of boredom. Look, I didn't fall into. I fell into recruiting. So I have a recruiting background, as you know and as viewers know. And I was in recruiting in New York city for about 14 years, two in the UK and then corporate recruiting before that. So I came from a recruiting background, but fell into the agency world here in New York City and then moving into Coaching. So it was one of three options that I was kind of toying with back in 2018, 2019 and 2020.

David Hannan [00:08:14]:
Hit Covid. I, I had my own agency at the time. I launched my own staffing firm, doing pretty well. Covid hit that ground to a halt in about three, four months. I was like, what next? And I knew what I didn't want to do. I didn't want to go back to the agency world or recruiting in general. It just wasn't really for me. Felt pretty transactional.

David Hannan [00:08:36]:
And I had a mentor and we talked like my prospective clients talk, like, you know, one of the biggest questions I remember deeply is what's the one thing that you've loved about your career so far that you'd miss if you couldn't have it in your next job? And I was like immediately working with candidates. Long story short, moved into coaching. So, yeah, so these, like, when I jumped in, I was, I kind of fell into the crowd. Diana, you know what? It's like you've been doing this longer than me. So I, you know, my, my feed was full of everybody winning, nobody failing, everybody doing great, everybody making six figures. And I jumped onto that moving train and realized that it was wise. It wasn't my train. Yeah, it was going to a destination that I got bored with pretty quickly.

David Hannan [00:09:24]:
I found on, just from a business perspective, I found that I was competing on price versus competing on value. And, and I learned that mistake pretty quickly. So I pivoted a couple times, trying to find my own differentiation, like how, how can I be different? And I, you know, I, I kind of leaned into the recruiter, like my past recruiting experience ultimately, and it felt better. And then the whole ADHD thing just manifested organically because I, I actually, just to be really honest with you, I, I got asked this a few days back, like, what was the catalyst for me? Why did I get, why did I go and seek an assessment? And I have a five, almost five year old daughter and becoming a parent is stressful anyway and any parents watching, you'll just be nodding your head. It's just a different kind of pressure. But I would start out of nowhere and I'd never been this way before snapping, like, just not out, you know, not Red mist type outburst. But yeah, really short. And it got to the point when I said something like backhanded to my daughter at a time she was, you know, four, she hadn't know any better.

David Hannan [00:10:34]:
I looked at my wife and I said, this isn't right. I don't feel good because I'D feel because I would spiral so hard with regret after, like, immediately I spiral. I'm like, what am I doing? So I reached out to my GP and he said, you know, well, yes, some questions. And I said, look, I have some friends, I have some members of family who are going through an assessment. Is it worth me going to an ADHD specialist or at least talking about an assessment? August I got my diagnosis. Adhd, primarily inattentive type. So I was never really bouncing off the walls at school. No one really caught it.

David Hannan [00:11:13]:
So tough, right? Tough living with something that I just thought that was my normal. Diana. So learning, you know, less than a year ago that, that normal and I don't even know if that's an appropriate word to use now. It was your normal new me.

Diana Alt [00:11:31]:
I'm gonna go with.

David Hannan [00:11:32]:
Everybody has their version of normal. Right. But the diagnosis and treatment that I, I feel really lucky to have access to has been. Yeah. Has been eye opening.

Diana Alt [00:11:45]:
Can we wander into the assessment? Because I have run across. I have had several clients that are about our age. I'm 50, so we're just a couple years apart and they're still younger than me. Diana, I know it's how it works, but that's okay. We're both wise. Our age starts with a five. That's what comes with okay. But we're.

Diana Alt [00:12:08]:
I've run across a few clients around your age that most, most of them are like, I'm convinced I have adhd. And a lot of times it's because they found out their 11 year old kid or, you know, they're young and there's a strong genetic component, but they've never gone through the assessment. And I think part of this fear, like, is this going to take a long time? Like, what is this? Like, I'm a busy person. Can you tell us a little bit about what your experience with going through assessment was like?

David Hannan [00:12:39]:
Sure. So I was recommended to reach out to and I'm just gonna dump a ton of information. So if anyone's watching in the New York area, that's great. But I'm part of the Montefiore system, specifically the Albert Einstein. I believe it's the School of Mental Health. And again, I feel like I've landed on my feet. I feel extremely privileged, so I want to get that out there. I feel very, very lucky, Diana, to find help that quickly.

David Hannan [00:13:10]:
But to answer your question succinctly, I went through maybe two to three online assessments. And these assessments were 20 to 30 pages long, like super deep, super personal family history. The Whole thing. And then two calls with a psychiatrist, two calls with a therapist. And within, I don't know, the first call with psychiatrist, she said we. She's also, I'm also being treated for ptsd, which is a whole different conversation. And she wanted to treat me for that first, which is our first call, and then give it four weeks for that treatment to start taking effect. And she didn't want to start me on two meds at the same time.

David Hannan [00:13:56]:
So as a first timer, medication taker, she wanted to start with that first and see how I dealt with that. And then we moved on to medication for ADHD and treating ADHD and yeah, life changing in every way possible. It's not a, it's not a flick of a switch.

Diana Alt [00:14:16]:
Yeah. Did it take a long time from when your GP first suggested to like, how long did the assessment say?

David Hannan [00:14:24]:
About a month, Diana. About a month. Maybe six weeks.

Diana Alt [00:14:27]:
Okay, that, is that.

David Hannan [00:14:31]:
From what I've heard, it's quick.

Diana Alt [00:14:33]:
It doesn't feel quick when you just want answers.

David Hannan [00:14:36]:
But it's true. But they were very thorough. Six weeks does sound short and I think just, you know, from, you know, someone and someone from the outside looking into this conversation and I know people in the UK are on three to four year, four year waiting list, Diana, just for that assessment.

Diana Alt [00:14:51]:
Years.

David Hannan [00:14:52]:
So, you know, six weeks. Absolutely. Looks like nothing. But you're right. You know, I was just, I was inherently. I've always been curious and that's one of the things that I always been curious my entire life. And that's one of the, can we call them traits? One of the personality traits of someone who has ADHD is innate curiosity. Yeah.

David Hannan [00:15:18]:
Even as an introvert, just innate curiosity. Like, you know, I used to get called nosy all the time, but I was never bouncing off the walls at school. I was a kid that would, you know, start looking out the window, oh, look, there's a woodpecker. Or just daydream and drift.

Diana Alt [00:15:34]:
It sounds like you may have gotten missed the way a lot of girls get missed. Girls and women.

David Hannan [00:15:40]:
So I've heard. Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:15:42]:
Because, yeah, the whole I, I follow some creators on like YouTube, tick tock, like wherever I find them. Because this is my thing I'm curious about right now that I really want to dig into. And the description that I heard a woman with ADHD say is that it's like I have control of my body but not my brain. So no one ever knew. And it was a woman that found out, you know, like in her 30s and 40s, something like that she had ADHD.

David Hannan [00:16:15]:
So, yeah, I follow a ton of women on LinkedIn who specialize in ADHD for women. Fascinating. Very different.

Diana Alt [00:16:23]:
Very fascinating. And there's simply not enough people. There's just not enough people. There's so much ADHD and also autism. Like those are both. We're identifying them and people are not being quiet about those diagnoses anymore because it's has less of a stigma than it used to have. And me, I feel obligated to learn a little bit more because there's only so many David Hannons out there that can coach like the rest of us. Coaches, I think need to understand at least minimal stuff so that we can help people.

Diana Alt [00:17:02]:
There's too much emphasis on like rigor around, like get yourself organized and do all these things. I'm like, I know, like, like I had a, I supervised a guy, I was a, I was a people manager in software QA testing for several years and one of my clients had ADHD and did not want to disclose it to anybody above me. So like the company didn't know I knew and maybe a couple of his friends, but it was a, it was a challenge to figure out and learn, but he taught me quite a bit about it. So.

David Hannan [00:17:36]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:17:38]:
Experience. How did, how do you feel like your ADHD became. You talk about it being your brilliance, Honestly, that's part of your branding now, Is that your ADHD is, is your brilliance.

David Hannan [00:17:52]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:17:53]:
How do you feel like your brilliance showed through in recruiting and now in coaching? And I promise we're going to get into what we're going to help job seekers with. But.

David Hannan [00:18:02]:
Yeah, of course. But I think this is relevant too. I do. Just from a human perspective. Yeah, for sure. And I love the direction that you've gone in. Two reasons. Two reasons.

David Hannan [00:18:19]:
Pattern recognition. I've always been good with puzzles, match games. You've probably seen those electronic games that sat like at the end of the bar and you put a quarter in or you put a dollar in and you, you get two pictures and one is like, like spot the difference. Right. I nail those every single time. Every single time. So pattern recognition and recruiting and I, for those that don't understand what full desk means, I was a full desk recruiter, which meant I dealt with the candidates directly and the hiring clients directly. So I ran the entire desk.

David Hannan [00:18:54]:
So I was very, I was very good. It was very good at getting a job description even from a first time client because I, I niched in executive and personal assistance at C level for most of my career. So I had a, A deep gist of what that role entails. So I'd get a job order from a specific client. I'd meet all my clients face to face. You know, client visits were actually pretty fun. And then I'd match the candidates. So pattern recognition.

David Hannan [00:19:18]:
I would know instead of instantly. I would, you know, people say three seconds arbitrary, five to seven seconds. Let's say I would have a decent gut check. Yes. No. Yeah. On a resume. And I don't think a lot of people talk about this enough and I don't think job seekers hear it enough because it's not easy to hear that, you know, their livelihood or their candidacy can be, you know, cut in five seconds given the amount of time they've probably spent on the resume.

Diana Alt [00:19:48]:
Um, it's weirdly easier for them. It's weirdly harder for them to hear that than it is to believe things that aren't even true about.

David Hannan [00:19:59]:
They want it to be different. Yeah. They want it to be about. And I, and I say this from a former candidate too.

Diana Alt [00:20:04]:
Yeah.

David Hannan [00:20:05]:
I haven't always been a recruiter, so, you know, I've seen how again, this is. It's going to sound like a blanket statement, but it applies for the majority. And that's how most agency recruiters work. We work what's known as we work closest to of the deal. We. I was talking to a client yesterday. You know, the biggest difference between what I do now and what I did then. Back then my role was, you know, find a round peg for my round hole.

David Hannan [00:20:30]:
That's it. Speed, right. The. The name of the game in, in agency recruiting was speed. And yes to efficiency in parentheses, but it was speed. So pattern recognition back then, I look back and like, holy shit. That's probably why I was good at it. I was really good at matching and I was really good at matching in the inverse.

David Hannan [00:20:50]:
So I was very good at saying no. So my hit rate, my, my placement rate was pretty high, or at least my interview rate was one of the highest in both firms that I worked at. So pattern recognition. And then I don't know if there's a name for it like multitasking. And again, it's like you think multitasking in. Eh, think really. And I. I'll use.

David Hannan [00:21:13]:
We were talking about Ridling Brothers before we went live and you know, I, I always. One of the things that I used to love about the circus when I was a kid with the clowns and they put plates on sticks. Right. So that's how I looked at my recruiting job. I'd get a job order and, you know, a top list of candidates, and that would be a plate on a stick. So I could spend multiple plates, all at different levels or how far they were in the process. All different levels or stages of the process multiple times. Without even a CRM.

David Hannan [00:21:46]:
Without even a CRM.

Diana Alt [00:21:48]:
That's impressive because, like, I didn't have a cr.

David Hannan [00:21:50]:
Yeah. When I worked at Career Group. Then I've had a CRM, believe it or not. And they moved to. I don't know what they moved to after I left, but shortly after I left, they moved to a really good CRM. And they still use it, I believe. And then Green Key, right when I left, they were implementing Salesforce. Before that were two systems that were separate for contract and one for perm.

David Hannan [00:22:11]:
They. Those systems couldn't talk to each other. It's just, you know, so a lot of manual, a lot of written notes, a lot of spreadsheets.

Diana Alt [00:22:19]:
So to answer your question, exactly which one.

David Hannan [00:22:24]:
Pattern recognition and. And just the ability to. To not get stressed. It's. It's. I say it in my brain, I'm like. But it sounds counterintuitive or it sounds like I'm BSing. I don't.

David Hannan [00:22:36]:
I can't explain.

Diana Alt [00:22:36]:
I understand this because when I told you I was managing that gentleman whose name was Jonathan, on my software, I had a team of QA testers and then I had a team of business analysts added. At one point, I had 12 people, and a lot of them were very focused individuals, but I had him. And then later on, there was another person on my team that also had adhd. And he. I don't know that he knew. I don't know that the second person knew. But I had learned enough from just being in management for several years to figure out, like, it's like parenting. You only have one child and I don't have any, but I have a lot of nieces and several nieces and nephews.

Diana Alt [00:23:20]:
And you just can't treat everybody the same. Like, that's just not how the world works. So I worked differently with the people that had ADHD because I was just trying to respond to needs. I knew I knew all about adhd, but I knew that their brains weren't different. And I was in the gifted program, so my brain always worked different in another way. And I. People that were peer managers, you know, I'm in software. There's like the tech support manager and the software engineering manager and my director are like, why? Why are these people not working the same way, why are you making them work the same way, giving them an outcome? And we do have a process to follow.

Diana Alt [00:24:04]:
But, you know, some people would rather have one big project that they were responsible for. These people wanted like a medium sized project or one big project, but I had to give them like little ones. If they didn't have five bugs that were. They were also responsible for testing for that release, it would go crazy because they needed to take their brain to another problem. And then of course, the answer from the first problem would sometimes come to them while they're working on a totally unrelated second problem. So it might not make sense to other people, but it makes sense to me based on some people that I've worked with and when I've coached in the past. Again, not knowing some of the tips and tricks we're about to get into, I figured out I can't ask my people to just focus on doing one thing one way. So why don't we just do it?

David Hannan [00:24:56]:
I think it was a case of, again, my knowledge of ADHD is mostly personal and it's wholly anecdotal. If I was, you know, gun to head, I'd say novelty craving, you know, the multiple plates, like, and because I was pretty decent at interview, like interview. Getting a candidate in interview, especially a candidate that really wanted to work with me, that was like, that's like a relationship thing, which, you know, I don't think he's also covered enough. You know, if anyone out there is looking for work, good recruiters really, really want to work with you. They do. Please treat them nicely. The good ones, they really want to work for you and work really hard. And yes, they want to make a fee, but they also want to treat you well.

David Hannan [00:25:43]:
So the novelty craving, but the dopamine hits. Now, I knew what dopamine was before my, before my diagnosis, we all do, but I really didn't understand. It's the fuel for motivation for me. I'm just going to say me, I don't want to blanket this for everybody because everybody has different stages of ADHD and they all like with autism. And it's a massive conversation that I'm not qualified to have. But, but for me, looking back, I'm like all those interviews that I got or just we used to call it a bite on a resume. So you send a resume to a client that say, hey, get me their availability. That was, we call that a bite.

David Hannan [00:26:22]:
Even getting a bite on a candidate resume was like a tiny rush, a micro, a micro dose of dopamine. I didn't know that what it was back then, I just, it just felt good. Right?

Diana Alt [00:26:31]:
Yeah.

David Hannan [00:26:33]:
So that fed the motivation because I had no motivation. Because if you told me that I needed to make 20 cold calls that day to brand new clients for Biz Dev, I would. My body would find a way to not do it. And if anyone's listening, with adhd, you know exactly what that means. I don't know how to explain it. I physically was stuck.

Diana Alt [00:26:52]:
Yeah.

David Hannan [00:26:52]:
So the whole like push through it, just do it. Doesn't work. And I, again, for myself, doesn't work in my brain. I can't just do it. I have mechanisms now through cbt, which is cognitive behavioral therapy. Some tools that are in my arsenal that I. If I'm quick enough to catch something, then I'll go through some stages that I've worked on myself, like splashing cold water on my face, like something as dumb as that. But it's gotta be like in the moment.

David Hannan [00:27:15]:
Otherwise it's like you can't put it.

Diana Alt [00:27:17]:
In your to do list and do it three tasks later because you will have lost your to do list.

David Hannan [00:27:22]:
Well, my to do lists all have alarms, Diana. So yeah, my to do list every day is about 17 alarms. 17, 1, 7. And they are from the. I'm sorry to go off topic. Thank you for letting me flow. They go from did you eat lunch? To picking up my daughter at five o'. Clock.

David Hannan [00:27:44]:
Now, I know she's at daycare because I dropped her off this morning, but I need something at 5 o' clock to pull me out. An audible alert to pull me out of whatever I might be in. Client project, a zoom call with a friend, grocery shop. You know, I work from home, so like I've got to try and fit in around my clients, stuff that I can. But yeah, work comes first when I work from home. So yeah, it's. You know, someone asked me that on another podcast three, four months ago. What would you say, like, you know, an ideal job is for someone with adhd? I'm like recruiting man, agency recruiting.

David Hannan [00:28:19]:
Full desk, full desk.

Diana Alt [00:28:21]:
And there's a lot of people I know, I know a lot. There's so many other jobs have various different jobs in this online space that for the same reasons it's good for them, you know, some of them will have. The ones that I think struggle the most are the ones that are doing like true services work. Like I'm your website designer and this website is due Friday. They struggle. Someone that has like, oh yeah, a community with 300 members that's 50 bucks a month, you know, and, like, they have only a few things to remember to do at a certain time. I want to turn now to kind of what we promised people was we were going to give some tips to people of adhd.

David Hannan [00:29:07]:
Only took us half an hour. Right.

Diana Alt [00:29:08]:
I'll be the person without ADHD that gets us to the next thing on the list.

David Hannan [00:29:15]:
Thank you, Diana. You're my accountability partner.

Diana Alt [00:29:18]:
I will be your accountability partner anyway.

David Hannan [00:29:20]:
I appreciate that. Even I need one.

Diana Alt [00:29:23]:
It's, it's. You're a great enter. Like, we're having a podcast. This is not like a CSI investigation. Like light bulbs in our face trying to figure out who committed the murder. Like, we're just talking about stuff, but we talk. I think a lot of people throw the word clarity around. Like, when I first started in this online business, I was like, that's a great word.

Diana Alt [00:29:46]:
No one's talking about it. Turns out everybody is talking about it. I just didn't know at the time because I was new clarity. We talk a lot about clarity being important in a job search, but I think where we sometimes fail in general, whether someone is neurospicy or not is not really saying what that means. And often it gets reduced to, you just need to know what kind of job title and industry you're going for. That's not unimportant. But can you tell us a little bit about what clarity means to you for a job search and how you might have to approach it differently for someone with adhd? I have some observations, but I want to bump them up against what you've seen because you have more clients in this space.

David Hannan [00:30:36]:
Yeah, great question. Clarity has always been something that I've worked on as part of my coaching offering with clients for three, almost four years now. And it's, it's always been there. And I'm glad you raised the additional point. Like, this is not just about getting really clear on the direction you want to head in. Isn't an ADHD thing. It's, it's an everybody thing. And I, I, I did it myself in 2013 and then again in 2018 when I was between career group and Green Key.

David Hannan [00:31:12]:
Um, I knew what I was good at, knew I was a good recruiter. You know, I could make deals and you could get ton of interviews. My candidates, I was professional, I was polished. You know, I wore a suit. I was good at that job, but I never loved it, Diana. But I did it. And I did it because, again, spinny plates, dopamine. It's a chain because I made quite a bit of money as an agency recruiter.

David Hannan [00:31:35]:
I worked for two really excellent companies that paid, you know, way above market for prim recruiting on commission. So very lucky. So for me, it was about helping others. Not just clients, but just everyone that I could kind of hope to reach on LinkedIn by getting really clear on what you want to do next. And I think there are a couple of things that I've seen and that I recognize even today when I speak to brand new prospective clients. And it's a lot of the time a lot of them are afraid to say the quiet things out loud and the quiet things being what they've always wanted to do. But they either feel. And there's like a list, right? It's like an arbitrary list.

David Hannan [00:32:19]:
I'm too far gone. It's too late. A lot of clients that I work with are 40s and above. I wouldn't stop you for all ages.

Diana Alt [00:32:28]:
But I want to stop you for a second and like tell a story about that. So about two years ago, I was down in the Dallas Fort Worth area. One of my friends has surgery. But it just so happened my auntie that lives down there had her 85th birthday. So I went to this birthday party, tons of cousins and whatnot there. And one of my cousins and his new wife, who I'd only met twice, was there. She was really curious about the work I do and asked me, like, tell me about this. She asked me at one point, what's the hardest thing about the career coaching job? And I said without question, it's getting people to recognize that it's okay to want what they want and to say it out loud because it's like they will either not know.

Diana Alt [00:33:15]:
So we have to work on getting them to know or they won't want to say it out loud because they think they don't deserve it. Because we've heard all these dumb messages like if work was supposed to be fun, they wouldn't call it work, all that kind of stuff. So anyway, I just had to jump in and share that story because to me it's the most sustainable, succinct explanation of what is the hardest about our job. So continue.

David Hannan [00:33:42]:
Thank you. I appreciate the interjection. Happy birthday to you said it was your nan, your grandma, your aunt.

Diana Alt [00:33:49]:
Sorry, my. My mom is auntie.

David Hannan [00:33:54]:
Good honor, good years. You mentioned just some. Something just then. And I wrote it down that they don't know what they want to do. I. We might have different views on this and that's cool. I think we should all have different opinions. And I'm sure we agree on a lot of stuff too.

David Hannan [00:34:11]:
But I would say about 7 out of 10 times every single person that I end up working with. And sometimes we uncover it in my chemistry course, chemistry calls, basically a discovery call. But we go super deep. And a lot of people I speak to, Diana, actually know what they want to do. They've just buried it so deeply. And now especially because all of my clients have ADHD or suspect, they have it on a, you know, on a pre treatment, pre diagnosis. But, you know, we have conversations about that super delicately. You know, I try and create safe spaces for, you know, anonymity and, you know, when job seekers come to me anyway, they're not usually in their proudest moment now, you know, add on a layer of neurodivergence and it's just, you know, it's.

David Hannan [00:34:55]:
It's a. It's a really delicate place. And I think another one of my strengths, given my recruiting background, I take candidate slash job seeker anonymity first and foremost. Like, it's super important. Yeah. So about 7 out of 10 people that I speak to, Diana, actually, with some digging, actually know what they really want to do. They're just too afraid to say it because they're afraid of getting more disappointed and just pushing that vision away. And it's kind of like it's far enough away that they feel safe not to, like, okay, that's.

David Hannan [00:35:25]:
That's what I really want to do. And I know I'll never touch it, but I still want to kind of have a, like a faded glimpse of it. So I know it exists. Right. Like it's.

Diana Alt [00:35:34]:
Yeah. What I was going to ask you is when they are afraid, is it because they don't know, they don't believe it exists? Is it because.

David Hannan [00:35:43]:
No, they know it exists. It should be something they've applied to and just apply to and apply to and apply to and being ghosted or rejected. Rejected so many times that they're like, effort, okay, what's the point? Or I've had some people cry on these chemistry. But I'm not even joking. I'm not doing this for, like, drama. I've had people cry on these chemistry calls, like, towards the end, people aren't coming on boarding their eyes out. But it's like towards the end when we start digging down, like, what does this mean? What have you always wanted to do? What's stopping you? You know, if you knew you couldn't fail, what would you really want to do tomorrow? Like, things like that. What did you want to be when you were a kid? That usually gets things really going.

David Hannan [00:36:19]:
And I always include my Air Force as a kid.

Diana Alt [00:36:23]:
Story context. Yeah.

David Hannan [00:36:25]:
And it's. For me, I think coaching is. I feel obligated as a coach to help people open up to me, it's whatever they want to say outside of our call or coaching sessions is entirely up to them. But really good work comes from them. And I getting to eye level really, really quick. And I find that helps when I share first. Right. Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:36:48]:
You know, I do too. And it's funny because there's so many people that have drunk like the ICF Kool Aid, where you only ever ask questions. You share limited amounts about yourself. You know, all the questions.

David Hannan [00:37:01]:
It's one of the reasons why I'm not certified.

Diana Alt [00:37:03]:
I. I have. Yeah, I've been back and forth on. On all of that. I have one of my friends.

David Hannan [00:37:09]:
I see the value in that. Just in case. I don't want to, like, put noses out of joint. I see the value in that. I just want to add that also.

Diana Alt [00:37:15]:
But, yeah, I get it. I haven't done it. And there's some spaces that I'm getting drawn into where it would be a benefit. So I'm trying to figure out, like, should I do that? How can I do this in a way that actually works for me? But going back to clarity. So you're saying your people know, but they just not been successful seven out of ten times. So what?

David Hannan [00:37:36]:
They've given up? They've given up, Diana. They've given up wanting to try anymore? Yeah, they want. It's more about validation. It's more about validation than anything else. Like, typically, a lot of people I speak to already know what they want to do. They've either been rejected for that one thing too often or now, you know, the last eight months have been now focused on ADHD professionals only. So that go it it. And I used to do this myself.

David Hannan [00:38:05]:
And I'm very good at it. I'm really good at Boolean strings. I'm really good at searching for jobs, Diana. Really good.

Diana Alt [00:38:11]:
Yes.

David Hannan [00:38:11]:
My bullying game is I worked so I could go and I could sit on LinkedIn and career builder and like, pull off really, really close jobs and I'd apply to, like, L and D internal recruiting, blah, blah, blah, blah. But guess what? Ghosted. Ghosted. You know why? I didn't know how to position myself. And I was kind of found myself still. Even though I was like, super targeted, I was kind of going wide. I was Multiple jobs, right? And guess what? When your resume lands on other recruiters inboxes for three different jobs and it's the same recruiter, you start, you start signaling to other people that you probably going wide and does that guy even know what he wants? So over time I'm just getting rejected and not even like thanks, we'll call you. Just silence.

David Hannan [00:38:55]:
And after a while it's like why even bother? So then I'd apply to recruiting jobs, think dopamine, apply to recruiting jobs, knowing I have a greater chance of getting an interview. But then guess what happens? I get the interview and then I don't want to go.

Diana Alt [00:39:11]:
And if you don't want to go, you're not going. So how do you turn this cycle for people? So when someone has been so demoralized by this, they know kind of, they know either exactly or close to exactly what they want. They've been demoralized by the process and if they try to go for second best, like they're just, it's just not going to happen. They're not going to be motivated to do the work or show up. How do you flip that script for people? What is your process to get them from that kind of sad and believe your point into being successful in a strategy that works for them.

David Hannan [00:39:54]:
Great question. So quickly because I know we don't have all afternoon and I want to talk about a lot of things that you've got on the agenda. I have a pretty powerful accurate system that I've used for about two years that draws from CliftonStrengths and SWOT, believe it or not, a simple SWOT. It's personal, it's questions are the same. Right. But the prompts that I ask my clients to kind of dive into a little bit more personal. And I draw from all that data, past resumes, I even transcribe with their permission. Obviously they know that our meetings are being transcribed.

David Hannan [00:40:35]:
So from early emails to chemistry core transcriptions, SWAT and Clifton 34, I have a system that builds out a trajectory I call a career path report. And this career path report builds two potential futures for them. And it's based on things that they've already wanted and already discussed with me.

Diana Alt [00:40:59]:
Very cool.

David Hannan [00:40:59]:
And yeah, and it's, I mean I've run, I should, I'm gonna write this down but I haven't run like the efficacy of this. But I've worked with maybe 100 clients with this process and it's been way more fine tuned recently. But I haven't missed the mark on any one of Those clients, it's been that close to what they actually want to do. You mentioned before, you said, and just to quote you second best, I call it dream adjacent. People throw out the word dream job all the time. I don't think it exists. It's exhausting to. Even for me as someone with adhd, chasing a dream means chasing perfection.

David Hannan [00:41:37]:
Right. And that. We all know where that can lead. Right. So we don't need to talk about that. But I, I've talked about this in a newsletter recently and I try and talk about it as often as I can, but I, I like the phrase dream adjacent, for example, and I used to do this when I was a recruiter. So let's say I had an executive assistant who worked in finance. She worked in the hedge fund space, hated finance, wanted to work in hr.

David Hannan [00:42:02]:
But in fashion, I'm like, and it's a big ass leap. Right. So I would have conversations. Okay. So how can we distill your dreams into something that is relevant, that's going to resonate with them? Because we need to meet them halfway. Would you be open to a potential executive assistant to head of HR at a fashion house? Like, how can we get you in? So you can then maneuver. And nine times out of ten they'll be like, yeah, be open to that conversation. Dream adjacent.

David Hannan [00:42:32]:
So if I can get my clients as close as possible to where they can then find footing and like, really accelerate through their own efforts. Because, Diana, we work with some incredible people. They've all got it. They've all got it in them.

Diana Alt [00:42:45]:
Yeah.

David Hannan [00:42:46]:
It's about getting them as close as possible and then just like handing it off and saying, look, this is probably the closest we can get. So I like, I like the phrase dream adjacent.

Diana Alt [00:42:57]:
I like dream adjacent. Dream adjacent. Thank you for giving me that.

David Hannan [00:43:01]:
I won't take some pressure off. Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:43:03]:
Completely stealing that from you.

David Hannan [00:43:05]:
Steal it, Steal it.

Diana Alt [00:43:08]:
The thing I love about that is it's very close to the way I've talked to people about that. I say like, your, your ideal. Maybe I say ideal a lot instead of dreaming. But your ideal job may be two or three hops from where you're at now.

David Hannan [00:43:24]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:43:24]:
Even not counting promotions.

David Hannan [00:43:25]:
Exactly right, Diana.

Diana Alt [00:43:27]:
Industry or role or whatever department that you're working in. And so I say it's really hard to do more than one hop at a time. So you're talking like two major hops. Role and industry. Let's do one hop and then go from there. It's brilliant.

David Hannan [00:43:46]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:43:47]:
A lot of people really get demoralized because they are trying to boil the.

David Hannan [00:43:53]:
Ocean and it's like, it's like, no.

Diana Alt [00:43:56]:
Instead of eating the elephant. So once you kind of get them to where. All right, now we see here's a path, here's a dream adjacent job. So maybe someday you can closer to the dream. What are strategies, you know, that actually work to execute the search? The searches right now feel like a long, dark slog for a lot of people and there's a certain amount of just perseverance that's involved. So how do you help people? What, what looks different about a strategy for one of your clients than maybe some of the recommendations we hear and read and maybe have coached to in the past so they can actually do the damn thing?

David Hannan [00:44:40]:
Yeah, most people who come to me, and I'm sure people that you speak to on a daily basis are really good at applying to jobs on the boards. LinkedIn Career Builder Monster, yada yada, and really good at it. And as you probably know, I'm sorry.

Diana Alt [00:44:56]:
Hitting apply as dopamine, saying that I completed correct things.

David Hannan [00:45:01]:
Correct. So exactly. It's that, yeah, that dopamine also comes from some false expectations or wonky expectations that you're going to get something in return, like you're expecting a result. So those dopamine hits. Yeah, they can have a negative effect when you don't start getting them anyway. You're right. The majority of people that I meet are doing a really good job of applying to jobs. They've got a halfway decent resume.

David Hannan [00:45:27]:
I met a prospective client yesterday whose resume was actually pretty good. And I said to them, did a really good job. So some have, like got it together. They've either taken advice off LinkedIn or they've used a resume coach before coming to me. So they're applying effectively. But what tends to happen is they will start out focused irony. They'll start out with a mission. Right.

David Hannan [00:45:50]:
It's like, I want to do that and I'm going to have my resume. I'm going to either use whatever services to get it done and the resume will be half decent enough for it to make sense. Right. So they'll start applying to jobs and with every job, like riding a bike, you're going to fall off and graze the knee with applications, you're going to get, I don't know, 1%, 5% response. If you get a response after a while, you start doubting yourself, especially with an ADHD brain, because you're going to mountain out of a molehill. They don't like me. My Resume is crap, whatever it may be. They've seen my LinkedIn, right? It's like you can spot it pretty quickly.

David Hannan [00:46:25]:
After a while, they'll start going wide, thinking wider is better, a wider net, more fish. And typically what they end up catching are crickets. Because the wider you go, the less response you're going to get. Because just from one piece of that metric application to response ratio, you've now multiplied it by 10. Your ghosting ratio is multiplied by 10, right? Just from a. Just from an amplification perspective. But now if you're resume, and I know this because it used to happen with me, and now if your resume is landing on the same recruiter's desk and they're running three different searches for three different clients with three different roles, because that happens, that recruiter is going to start thinking, is this guy Dave even want. So next time they see my resume, especially if they have adhd, don't forget pattern recognition.

David Hannan [00:47:19]:
They see my resume for a full time, they might not even open it, Diana, because they meet the assumption that this guy doesn't know what he wants this time. So you start running into the risk of thinning out your impact. So I have this crazy concept that I call the one path principle, and it terrifies a lot of people. It's on my website. I explain it there like one paragraph. It's nothing magical, but it's about reframing what a job search should be based on certain factors within a job search journey that we can't change, I. E. Your LinkedIn profile, right? So, long story short, you're applying to three to five different types of jobs, three to five different recruiters get your resume and go, oh, my God, yeah, guess where they're going next.

David Hannan [00:48:02]:
Your LinkedIn profile. Your LinkedIn profile is saying one thing. If you're lucky, right? If You've done your LinkedIn profile well and you've optimized it well, it usually says one thing, right? So now you've got four, potentially four conflicting stories, right? And I can tell you from personal experience, I don't know if anyone's listening who's in the recruiting game or been recruiting. You've been a hiring manager, you know this, and you're a coach. Nothing repels a recruiter quicker than confusion. So if I was confused or I wasn't like, what?

Diana Alt [00:48:33]:
It's like marketing.

David Hannan [00:48:34]:
It's going to sound harsh, but, Diana, like, people need to hear this harsh reality that I think a lot of people don't want to say. And it's not. I'M not saying this because I disrespected them. How could they? I didn't know them. So it was never personal. It was a business decision. It was a. Remember I talked about earlier, speed.

David Hannan [00:48:50]:
My job was speed. Round peg, round hole. So if I was confused or just unsure even about the relevance of that resume, not the person, the resume.

Diana Alt [00:49:02]:
500 more that you can pick from that am I going to spend.

David Hannan [00:49:06]:
They are a closed. They're a closed browser tab. Yeah, that's it. Like done without even a feeling. It's just part of my job.

Diana Alt [00:49:17]:
Like picking tomatoes or any, Any. No HR department is ever going to let their recruiter say, you're not moving forward. Thanks for your application. You're not moving forward because when I clicked from your resume to your LinkedIn, I was confused. They're never going to say, I never.

David Hannan [00:49:34]:
Responded to one email in 16 years saying, did you mean this? Not once?

Diana Alt [00:49:37]:
No.

David Hannan [00:49:38]:
Yeah, I don't have time. You know, it's, it's, it's. It sounds almost me. I almost cringe inside me saying these out loud because I know how this lands with some people when they've been looking for so long. I was out of work for 11 months in 2013, Diana. Longest in my entire life. I know how rejection feels and I have. Ghosting feels even worse.

David Hannan [00:49:59]:
But yeah, it's an unfortunate truth that I don't think a lot of people talk about enough in the recruiting space. Like, this is like the open candidates, the grown adults. Start treating them like them. Tell them the truth. It might sting, but it's way more temporary than hanging on hope. That's never going to happen. Right. So to your point, how do I get them through that? I call it my one path principle.

David Hannan [00:50:23]:
And it's essentially creating this granular strategy where they can still apply. Because once we've moved on from clarity to resume, they now have a master version that they can use to apply. I have tools that they get after we've closed out resume so they can tweak that resume accordingly. They can create different. They can recontextualize bullet points. They can create different metrics based on what kind of job they're applying to. Right. But they stay inside the lines and that can be terrifying for a lot of people.

David Hannan [00:50:53]:
I get every single client through it. Some take longer than others. I had one client go through Clarity in like three days. I had one client say, are you ready for this? Seven weeks. Seven weeks. Hard. Because it requires you letting go of old bought into habits. It's the hardest Part.

David Hannan [00:51:11]:
But from there, Diana, to answer your question, from that comes confidence. And I've said this so many times, you know, job search is not a skills game. It's a confidence game. It's a game of confidence. And that confidence comes from knowing where you're going.

Diana Alt [00:51:27]:
And I'll tell you, I'll say one other thing because I say this about entrepreneurship too. There is no bigger boss move in job search or entrepreneurship than saying no to things that are not for you. So like withdrawing from an interview process when you figure out, oh my gosh, oh yeah, shit show, or this is actually, you know, I talked to the recruiter about this, but now that I'm talking to the hiring manager, it actually is completely different. Like withdrawing from those things when you figure out they're not for you is a big box move. And I often say to my clients, like something I have focused on. It sounds like you and I are doing this in different ways. Is being really selective on where you apply. The people that are landing the fastest and definitely the people that are landing the happiest apply the fewest places.

David Hannan [00:52:22]:
Correct.

Diana Alt [00:52:23]:
Because they are figuring out what they want and then they're also doing more relationship building things and whatnot. The whole the proverbial get the job through the network, which is also not understood. We could rant about that on another episode of the show.

David Hannan [00:52:39]:
Let's say another episode on that alone.

Diana Alt [00:52:41]:
Yeah, you're doing. You're basically saying we're putting you on a path. Not a skinny line, but not a super wide one. It has guardrails and I'm going to tell you how to jump over the puddles whenever you're like, oh, I kind of want this. The way I look at it is when I have people that have a diversity of roles they're interested in. I'm very good at finding a common thread too. So that pattern recognition thing that you and I both have in common, and so often it's about what problems they want to solve. The laziest thing that people say is, I like to solve problems.

Diana Alt [00:53:17]:
Like literally, that's table stakes. It's like showing up on time and taking a shower before you come to work. Like you have to do those things, but when you can dig in and figure out what problems someone is a genius at solving, that's how you can find the three way and the different paths. I just spoke to a woman via DMS on LinkedIn. Another one of my prior clients had referred to me like, hey, you're good. She said, you're a Good person to follow. I'm not really shopping for a coach, but I'm in this situation and the person has a psychology degree. Had worked in clinical environment.

Diana Alt [00:53:54]:
I think she'd worked in clinical environments. But basically she's like, I don't know even what to type in as a job title. So I suggested to her think a lot about what problems you like to solve and that you're excellent at solving and a couple of other things. I'm like, go ask, chat GPT what jobs do that. Put your resume in, put what you're genius at and ask it for five job titles and then go further research and from there you can start to narrow down. It's one of my. It's one of my favorite uses of AI is to help. I can do that.

Diana Alt [00:54:30]:
But honestly, if I'm stumped because I don't know the industry, what am I going to do? Same thing. I'm going to go take the same stuff and put it in to my AI tool choice and come out with it. We're getting close. Ish. To the end of time. One more. I have a little lightning round list. But before I ask you that, I wanted to ask you how can ADHD job candidates advocate for themselves without jeopardizing the opportunities? So it can be so strange and weird because the brain works differently.

Diana Alt [00:55:08]:
What are some ways that they can honor their brain and maybe ask for something if they need it, even if it's just clarity. When should I follow up with you without worrying that they're going to jeopardize their candidacy?

David Hannan [00:55:23]:
What do you mean? From a job search perspective, like they're in process. Like I've had an interview and it's like interacting with people.

Diana Alt [00:55:30]:
I'm getting at the job seeker, taking control of how they interact with people in a way that honors instead of just trying to fit in the. Be the. Be the square peg in the round hole. Are there any. Do you have for that?

David Hannan [00:55:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. And it comes from repetition. So I'll answer your question definitively. It goes back to clarity. Diana and I. I don't want to beat that dead horse, but a lot of what you and I both work in, and I'll speak from my own behalf because it's really a deep part of my clarity phase is the reason we lean into something so granular and definitive is because as you mentioned, it's so much easier to say no to things that don't match what you want to do anymore. So you can push a lot of things away, which reduces ghosting rejection Right.

David Hannan [00:56:25]:
Just from a math perspective. But as far as. I'll tell you what I would do if I was like, you know what, I'm done with coaching Diana. Later, I'm going to go and work L and D in corporate America back on the Metro north to New York City. Right. So what I would do is embed myself with. And this is obviously from a research perspective, I would use ChatGPT. I'd use LinkedIn search.

David Hannan [00:56:49]:
Like I said, I'm really good at Boolean. I would find other communities, people, content creators, specifically, who focus on neurodivergence or specifically adhd. And if I really want to get granular, inattentive type, right, which is adhd, PI, predominantly inattentive. And I would learn and I would glean some confidence from what other people have shared their stories and so on and so forth. So again, it's a confidence game, Diana. And wherever you can get that confidence from, it has to be based on something that you've done. Right. You can't give someone confidence.

David Hannan [00:57:23]:
It just, it sounds like lip service. And you know, job seekers are smart people, like, they know what needs to be done. But with adhd, it's just hard to do something when we're not interested in it. And that not interested thing could be more rejection. Right. Like, I don't want that anymore, so why bother?

Diana Alt [00:57:40]:
You're saying immerse yourself in information and community related to something that you're interested in.

David Hannan [00:57:46]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:57:46]:
And by doing that, you'll feel equipped. Equipped with knowledge. And then also especially for people that are more relational, they'll thrive on. And I met people, even if it's a buddy in the comments like you and I were for four years, that will carry them through and make things easier, then they're not distracting themselves, applying to crap that they should.

David Hannan [00:58:12]:
Meaningless shit. Exactly. And something that I've really enjoyed helping current clients when they've been okay with it is when we get to phase three, which is connection. I teach my clients how to network properly, is doing super deep research. So I use perplexity for this. So if anyone's watching perplexity, AI is amazing. From a research, ChatGPT can do everything too. But I use perplexity because it, I don't know, habit maybe.

David Hannan [00:58:39]:
Right. So I will actually research companies that publicly advocate for neurodivergence. I will. And it's a really. It's like there's this like meeting at eye level moment. Diana. So like when I meet someone who's reaching out, inquiring about my services and we talk about adhd, the wall comes down immediately, immediately. And it's the same thing when you identify a company that says the neurodivergent principles or how they really celebrate accommodations that they do.

David Hannan [00:59:12]:
You know what I'm saying? Like if you can find again, we're kind of like going down a single digit sometimes maybe for when people looking for an actual company they want to work at, but you can find that again. It's, it's an, it's an air of confidence. So if you find companies that can celebrate the way your brain works for one of a better phrase, it's a massive confidence boost. And I just, again, it's like it takes the pressure off.

Diana Alt [00:59:35]:
I really love that you said that. It reminds me that there's a creator named Grace McCarrick that I originally found on Tik Tok. She's also on LinkedIn and I'm sure other places, but she is focused on teaching soft skills to professionals, you know, of all ages. When, when I first saw her, she talked more about teaching Gen Z, but she talks about all of it. And I saw this video on TikTok just last night where someone had, you know, posted a comment that she was responding to that said basically you're just kind of like a shill or you're constantly defending corporate and that kind of thing. And she responded and said look, y' all are coming at that, that from the perspective with this idea that I'm advocating for these unethical companies. If you go and look at my website page and see what logos are I'm working with, those are companies that actually care. So if you don't like where you're at, go look at that and research companies like that.

Diana Alt [01:00:40]:
And that's where you need to go work. So don't come at me because you work for somewhere that's not interested in this. Go find somewhere that's interested in developing you. And I think that's really powerful concept.

David Hannan [01:00:51]:
You can literally write that into perplexity for free. Give me a list of New York City based firms that have neurodivergent programs publicly and bomb 5 seconds. Lists, links.

Diana Alt [01:01:04]:
Yes.

David Hannan [01:01:07]:
But ultimately Dan, I think it comes down to relatability and unmasking. One of the biggest when I can unmask with someone, for example, when I meet someone else who's. I'll use your phrase because I like it. Neurospicy, they think differently. There's. We walk around with masks on. I walked around with a mask for 52 years and I only over the last six months have I felt confident enough to unmask, But I've got to tell you, when I meet a prospective client now who has ADHD or suspected adhd, I've never felt this way before and I really, really mean this. And I say it in my calls with them.

David Hannan [01:01:49]:
It's so easy for me to feel like I can be myself in front of them and I. Again, that makes, it's, it makes everything feel relatable. All the guards come down, we meet at eye level super quickly, and it's, it just feels safe. And I, I think that safe space thing has been thrown around for the right reasons and also the wrong reasons, just, you know, to create, you know, viral engagement. But it just. I feel safe. I feel safe when I talk to people who come to me for help who are also struggling with the limitations of what ADHD imposes on their daily routine. Job search or just life in general.

David Hannan [01:02:23]:
Parents I meet, my parents I meet who have adhd. Oh, my God. So, yeah, a lot of us, I've met a lot of people who were late stage diagnoses and it's based on they either saw some traits in their kid or, like me, I thought I had a mad anger issue, that I was just an angry Joe, that I was like, you know, rage Red Mist guy. Turns out I was emotionally dysregulated. Part of the ADHD subset of struggles. Yeah. I've always wrestled with my moods, but now I know one of the reasons why it could be happening. I can, I can treat it, I can learn coping mechanisms.

David Hannan [01:03:05]:
So, yeah, relatability. So, yeah, find your crew, find people that. And relate to you.

Diana Alt [01:03:14]:
I like that you're out there approaching your coaches more like your, Your clients, more like peers.

David Hannan [01:03:21]:
I think that there's most. Diana, most of these people just want to feel validated.

Diana Alt [01:03:25]:
Yes.

David Hannan [01:03:26]:
That's what they're looking for. Forget job search. I'm telling you, like, this is bonkers for me to say this on a job search themed podcast. People just want to relate to another person that understands what they're struggling with in and out of the resume send. Because at the end of the day, we're people before we're job seekers and it's. This goes much deeper than just sending resumes and making sure your LinkedIn looks pretty. It's like, it's like deep shit. Excuse me.

Diana Alt [01:03:55]:
No, we're. We're a PG 13 rated shop.

David Hannan [01:03:58]:
Okay. I don't usually curse. Sorry.

Diana Alt [01:04:01]:
I do. So I want to feel like such a grown up.

David Hannan [01:04:05]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:04:05]:
Huh.

David Hannan [01:04:06]:
I felt like such a grown up saying.

Diana Alt [01:04:09]:
I said earlier and I'd say it again.

David Hannan [01:04:11]:
I know you did. Yeah. I'm not. I'm not going there.

Diana Alt [01:04:13]:
I don't beat me all the time, but yeah. So I'm gonna move us into a lightning round and then we're gonna talk about how people can get a hold of you and your exceptional newsletter. We'll talk a little bit about that before we close.

David Hannan [01:04:28]:
Thank you.

Diana Alt [01:04:30]:
Often say is not lighting round.

David Hannan [01:04:32]:
Is it music or anything?

Diana Alt [01:04:33]:
Like I'm not fancy. No jeopardy fee.

David Hannan [01:04:37]:
You're so fancy, Diana. Come on.

Diana Alt [01:04:39]:
Very much not fancy. I have an SOP and some VAs that make me look organized. So what is the worst piece of career advice you've ever received, David?

David Hannan [01:04:49]:
That I've ever received?

Diana Alt [01:04:50]:
Yep. Worst piece.

David Hannan [01:04:53]:
Apply to as many jobs as you can.

Diana Alt [01:04:56]:
That's a micro mic drop right there. I agree.

David Hannan [01:05:02]:
It's a numbers game. It ain't. Trust me.

Diana Alt [01:05:05]:
Yeah.

David Hannan [01:05:06]:
Take it from an old boy recruiter. It is not a numbers game. It is a confidence game.

Diana Alt [01:05:11]:
I love that. What is a personal habit that helps you be successful?

David Hannan [01:05:20]:
Personal habit. Okay. It's a two part answer. Working on my listening skills. Okay. And my absolute reliance on my alarm. I have an alarm app that I use called Galarm. I don't work with them.

David Hannan [01:05:36]:
I'm not affiliated with them. I use their free version. It's spelled alarm with the G on the front. It's free. I use iOS version.

Diana Alt [01:05:43]:
Okay.

David Hannan [01:05:45]:
Alarms for everything. I mean successful. Successful at what? Remembering to eat? Remembering to go to the bathroom? Yes. Success. Alarms for everything.

Diana Alt [01:05:58]:
Can I tell you my thing that I am terrible about?

David Hannan [01:06:00]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [01:06:01]:
I am the worst about taking out the trash.

David Hannan [01:06:05]:
Okay. I love taking out the trash.

Diana Alt [01:06:07]:
Well, then you can just come move to Kansas and take out my trash. We can be neighbors.

David Hannan [01:06:11]:
I can't think of a better reason to come to Kansas.

Diana Alt [01:06:14]:
And then you can take my trash out and we'll.

David Hannan [01:06:16]:
I'll be a trash guy. I'll be the Kansas trash guy.

Diana Alt [01:06:19]:
But I. I just end up forgetting and then like it's super late and they come early on Wednesdays. I did get it out this week, so that's a win.

David Hannan [01:06:28]:
Alarms for everything.

Diana Alt [01:06:30]:
What is something that you've changed your mind about recently? Like in recent. It doesn't have to be yesterday. It can be in the last, like year or two. But what's something you've changed your mind about? I stole that from Adam Grant.

David Hannan [01:06:48]:
Oh, my God. Can we come back to that one?

Diana Alt [01:06:51]:
Yeah, we can come back to it.

David Hannan [01:06:52]:
That is a really good one.

Diana Alt [01:06:54]:
Before common misperception people have about your work as a career coach for the.

David Hannan [01:07:00]:
ADHD set, that my last name is Copperfield. Like, this is some kind of, like, you know, pay me the dollars and everything's like a magic flip of a switch. No, it's work. It's hard work. It's simple work. Because I have a framework and structure. I have weekly body leveling calls with my clients on FaceTime. Like this, you know, like live.

David Hannan [01:07:22]:
So accountability partner, I make sure that you're on your toes. Keeps me on my toes. So, yeah, this is not easy work. And it's something that I even push back on and say, aisha, you don't need a recruiter.

Diana Alt [01:07:35]:
You know what?

David Hannan [01:07:37]:
I know the difference between the two.

Diana Alt [01:07:38]:
I'm occasionally saying, you really need to be talking to a recruiter. I'm more often saying therapist. So I've had a few clients that I've worked with where we uncover like. Like, if you have a limiting, limiting beliefs about money, like, I'm not the person to fix that because usually there's something going on from prior in their life. It's about that. Okay. Did you come up with something you've changed your mind about or are we. Are you just going to do paths.

David Hannan [01:08:07]:
Over the last year? Is that because in five years? Last year, Last year or two. I think my health. I think my physical health, Diana. I turned 53 this year. A lot of dominoes have sprung up before me since my diagnosis last August. I mean, it's, you know, barely a year later, right? What, nine, ten months, I've started to take things. I've started to take me more seriously. That makes sense.

David Hannan [01:08:34]:
It's. It's maybe hard to put into words or. What does that even mean? Like, what is that? What is he even talking about? I think I'd always put myself second best because there was this constant craving for me to be liked by everybody. Another ADHD thing we wrestle with. To be constantly want to be liked. I want to be like Diana. I want to fit in. Is why the mask.

David Hannan [01:08:57]:
So being able to unmask was scary af. It still is, but I pushed through it. And if I can add this, my wife sent me a text today. I got a little bit emotional just then. Just compose myself. We went to a friend's house this weekend. They have three girls. We have a girl.

David Hannan [01:09:18]:
It's not our first time there. We went around and, you know, and I was mingling and mingling with people that I only met once or twice before. Right. And these gaps in between are months apart. Husband mingling. And we had a phenomenal time. Like five hours just flew by. And then my wife sent me a text today and said how proud she was of how I was that day, how calm and upbeat and just nice to be around.

David Hannan [01:09:51]:
Like she noticed. So, yeah, hearing, or in this case reading things like that, like does. I'm. I'm working on positive change internally. Has been. Yeah. Really important. It's so.

David Hannan [01:10:06]:
It feels so very new to me though, Diana. And it's not that I lived a life of self deprecation, but I never put myself first. And I always assumed that people didn't like me because I was weird or I was different or I was introverted or I was too quiet or I was too fill in gap here. Right. With whatever negative.

Diana Alt [01:10:22]:
Right to the point yet that you realize that your weirdness might be why some people like you.

David Hannan [01:10:30]:
Possibly. But my weirdness was the fact that I was at masking. Think about that awkwardness was the masking.

Diana Alt [01:10:39]:
Got it.

David Hannan [01:10:39]:
Because, you know, some people can sense like something's off with this guy. Something's off, like their radar. We like what's at what. Right. Like, like me seeing a resume that didn't make sense and what. So I'd meet someone and like. And I know now how that must have felt for them because I now I'm. I try and unmask as uncomfortable as it is a lot of the time still, and it probably always will be.

David Hannan [01:11:02]:
But I. Yeah, I look back, I'm like, these guys probably thought, like, what's his deal? Why doesn't he feel as authentic as I would have hoped? Right. Like, does he have an agenda? Is he hiding something? Right. Yeah, I was hiding me.

Diana Alt [01:11:15]:
Hiding your whole eye.

David Hannan [01:11:17]:
My God. Yeah. So like, you know, living up to other people's expectations was an incredibly exhausting practice for me, you know, Corporate America. I worked for 2 phenomenal corporate. 2 phenomenal staffing agencies in New York City. Very high bars and, you know, and my clients were billion dollar hedge funds.

Diana Alt [01:11:35]:
Right.

David Hannan [01:11:36]:
I come from a small Yorkshire mining town. What. So, you know, I think to like, you know, the whole Fake it till you make it. It's the worst advice. Maybe I could have given you that. Fake it till you make it. Worst advice I've ever been given. Find a way to unmask.

David Hannan [01:11:49]:
Find a way to be your real self, goofy and all.

Diana Alt [01:11:52]:
I have a different relationship with Fake it till you make it. But I think, and I feel like, yeah, I feel like there's a Certain degree of masking we all have to do. It's nothing like what you've had to deal with. But I am an enneagram8, which is the challenger. Like the, like, I'm wired to be like a contrarian, looking out for the little guy.

David Hannan [01:12:15]:
Really. You know.

Diana Alt [01:12:18]:
It doesn't play.

David Hannan [01:12:20]:
No. I love your personality. It's probably why we get along so well.

Diana Alt [01:12:23]:
Yeah. And it's funny how much of it we, like, just discovered from never having talked like this before. So I want to make sure that we don't go all day. We're a little.

David Hannan [01:12:36]:
Do we have any questions from anyone or did anyone DM you?

Diana Alt [01:12:39]:
There were not a lot of people in the comments today. So we had some great jobs. We had some of that. But sometimes they show up a little bit later. I always go back afterwards because I get lost in the conversation. I always go back, answer all the questions if they pop up.

David Hannan [01:13:00]:
Yeah. And I'm happy to answer any DMs after the fact too. Yeah, for sure.

Diana Alt [01:13:05]:
So what I was going to say is I like to make sure that everybody knows the best places to find you, the best thing to connect with you, which I believe right now your biggest thing you're driving people towards is the Imperfectionist newsletter. Do you want to talk about that a bit and how people.

David Hannan [01:13:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. So I had a newsletter a few years back called Pathfinder. And again, I look back and I say this with love. It was a very broad, dare I say, generic newsletter, job search related, deep, but also kind of surface level stuff too. Like, everybody's worried about the same thing.

Diana Alt [01:13:40]:
We care about this one.

David Hannan [01:13:42]:
No, I know. So then since my diagnosis last August, I'm like. And I buried my previous newsletter for about a year and I said to my wife, and I'm like, I kind of like, I want to restart my newsletter, but I need. I need that different twist. So I launched it, I want to say, four months ago, the Imperfectionist. And I landed on the Imperfectionist, because I think it's the imperfection in job search that can reduce a lot of the stress and overwhelm and spiral that a lot of us, like, just get so bogged down with. And I had this little mindset. If your resume is good enough to ship, ship it.

David Hannan [01:14:11]:
No such thing as a perfect resume. Ship it, ship it. If someone can read it, get your friend to read it, have a colleague read it, ship it. So it's the imperfection in us that can reveal the real us. And I think it can also, in Some way empower us. Right. To be more us. I know that sounds cliche, but there's no other way for me to put it.

David Hannan [01:14:33]:
Like, if, you know, if you feel what I'm saying resonates, then, you know. Right. But, yeah, it's a. It's a newsletter. It drops every Saturday, 10am Eastern Time. And I typically cover one of four areas, which is part of my Core 4 framework, which is run through clarity, cohesion, connection, and communicate. And I typically talk about one of those four pillars, if you will.

Diana Alt [01:14:57]:
You guys, I go super deep. I'm gonna jump in here and say, I love email. I love sending emails. Like, I have a list. It's not huge, but I'm particular about who gets to be in my inbox.

David Hannan [01:15:12]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:15:13]:
David is one of only about four people in the career space that is currently in my inbox that I read every week.

David Hannan [01:15:22]:
So that means a lot.

Diana Alt [01:15:24]:
Thank you, adhd. But I'm learning from him how I can maybe help my clients.

David Hannan [01:15:27]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:15:28]:
So it's.

David Hannan [01:15:29]:
It's. It's deeper job search advice, you know, but it is geared towards those who are struggling for real, and it's.

Diana Alt [01:15:37]:
It's. It's really good stuff, so I think anybody can benefit. But yeah, is it. Just go to your LinkedIn features page to get it.

David Hannan [01:15:46]:
It's on my website, Pathfinder Coach. You'll see there's a link there in the header at Pathfinder Coach. Or if you already know of me or can find me on LinkedIn, I'm obviously on LinkedIn. And if you scroll down to my feature section, there's an image there with where you can sign up for my newsletter if you want. If you don't want, that's okay too, but yeah.

Diana Alt [01:16:08]:
All right.

David Hannan [01:16:08]:
I enjoy writing Diana, so reigniting the newsletter was a big fat dopamine rush for me. Yeah. Oh, my God. I love writing. So, yeah, I just want to truly want to help people. I want job seekers to feel a little bit less shitty about what they're going through.

Diana Alt [01:16:27]:
Same. Well, on that note, I think we'll close. Thank you so much for coming. I really appreciate it.

David Hannan [01:16:33]:
Thanks for having me, man. This is amazing. Thank you. Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:16:39]:
Hey, are you sabotaging your job search without even realizing it? You might be. I break down the most common job search mistakes and how to fix them in my free [email protected]. so go grab it today. And that's it for this episode of work. Should feel good if something made you laugh, think, cry, or just want to yell yes. At your phone, send it to a friend, hit follow, hit subscribe, do all the things. And even better, leave a review if you've got a sec. I'm not going to tell you to give it five stars.

Diana Alt [01:17:14]:
You get to decide if I earned them. Worksheet feel good. Let's make that your reality.