Diana Alt [00:00:04]:
Hey, Diana Alt here. And this is Work Should Feel Good, the podcast where your career growth meets your real life. Each week I share stories, strategies and mindset shifts to help you build a work life that works for you on your terms. Hello, hello, hello and welcome to Work Should Feel Good, the show where your career growth meets your real life. I'm your host Diana Alt and today my guest Shelby Garlock and I are going to talk about how professionals can transition from being LinkedIn lurkers to building visibility and credibility without falling prey to influencer tricks that they aren't interested in. Shelby is a CRM strategy leader who focuses on customer experience, digital marketing and strategic business growth. She's dedicated to driving impactful business impactful customer experiences through programs to enhance adoption, retention and advocacy across industries including SaaS, retail and a whole bunch of other things that she's done. Shelby Scott, over 15 years of experience leading high performing teams.

Diana Alt [00:01:17]:
I actually met her about 12 years ago, so she was already shining as a leader at that point and she fosters a service oriented culture supporting her team and her clients. Her career spans both agency and client side roles where she's consistently driven increased marketing performance in both early stage and high growth stages. Outside the office, Shelby spends her time reading a lot about a little bit of everything. I'm with you there. If she doesn't have her nose in a book, she is spending time with her family, dining, traveling and racing on the autocross track, which most people probably did not have on their bingo card when I started to introduce you. So, so we're gonna start there. Autocross. What do you love about it? What do you love about that stuff?

Shelby Garlock [00:02:06]:
It is so exhilarating. Oh my goodness. I don't even know where to start. I'll go way back. I was in a really bad car accident when I was 15 years old. We rolled a truck five times down into a ravine. It was, it was pretty bad. I actually had my first facelift at the age of 15 because of that.

Shelby Garlock [00:02:31]:
A lot of people don't know that. As a result, I was afraid of being in cars, especially being an in passenger for a lot of years and was only really comfortable driving and even then to a limited extent. But one of the things that I have learned throughout my years is to become more comfortable being a passenger as well as a driver. But you have to get to know your car. You have to know its limits and that's what autocross allows you to do. And for those of you who don't know, because I saw your I was.

Diana Alt [00:03:06]:
Gonna say, tell me what autocross is, because that is not something a lot of people know about.

Shelby Garlock [00:03:11]:
No, they don't. So essentially, you get a, you know, big. A big open place and concrete. Something where you put up cones and essentially make a track that you have to drive around cones as fast as you can, essentially, is what you're trying to do. And that's where you learn the limits of your cars. And when it comes to autocross, there are three things that you have to keep in mind, or there are three inputs, and you can't do all. Any of them at the same time. You've got acceleration, you've got turning, and you've got braking de acceleration.

Shelby Garlock [00:03:53]:
Right. And you can't do any of those three at the same time.

Diana Alt [00:04:00]:
Oh, focus.

Shelby Garlock [00:04:01]:
Yeah, 100% focus. That's where you get understeer and oversteered, spin your car around and do all the fun things.

Diana Alt [00:04:08]:
But it's like focus and switching.

Shelby Garlock [00:04:12]:
Exactly. And preparation, too.

Diana Alt [00:04:15]:
Yeah.

Shelby Garlock [00:04:16]:
So you're always looking ahead at the next cone, understanding what it is you're going to do and having a plan for, okay, when am I going to break? When am I going to turn? When am I going to accelerate? Do I go, you know, do I go around that cone tight based off of what's ahead, or do I go around that cone wide because of what's coming next? There's a lot of preparation.

Diana Alt [00:04:36]:
So there's a lot of scene around corners, literally. Or cones, corners, whatever you want to call it in order to. To do that and be safe. I think that's such a good metaphor for. I mean, let's. Let's call it like all of life, definitely careers, whenever things feel a little bit wild. So how long have you been autocrossing?

Shelby Garlock [00:04:57]:
Just a couple of years. Not too long. Yeah, I. So I. I bought my dream car. A lot of people probably don't know. This is kind of a funny story. My favorite color is green.

Shelby Garlock [00:05:12]:
I almost came on in green in your brand color, but I was like, oh, my gosh. But my favorite color is green. And I had a Porsche Boxster, a white one, and then python green became available as a standard color, an upgrade color. And so I told my husband, I'm ordering that because that's my Python green. Nice. And everybody has.

Diana Alt [00:05:36]:
Everybody has something.

Shelby Garlock [00:05:38]:
Yeah. So I ordered it, and it would be a collector's edition. It was the GTS 4.0, so the last of the naturally aspirated engines as they're moving to EV for that particular model. So it was A pretty powerful car. Really excited. Couldn't wait to get it. And one day I had a news pop up explaining that a ship was on fire that was hauling Porsches overseas. Oh, no.

Shelby Garlock [00:06:13]:
My beloved car was on that ship. Not only was it on fire, it also sank to the bottom of the ocean. First world problems. Yes. There were tears involved because I had been waiting for a long time for that car.

Diana Alt [00:06:29]:
Oh, no. That's terrible.

Shelby Garlock [00:06:32]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:06:32]:
But you got it.

Shelby Garlock [00:06:33]:
I did.

Diana Alt [00:06:34]:
I've seen it. The car is beautiful, believe it or not. So how many women do you autocross with?

Shelby Garlock [00:06:40]:
Actually, so we do have a women's autocross group. There's about 20 of us.

Diana Alt [00:06:45]:
Nice. So yeah, that's very cool.

Shelby Garlock [00:06:48]:
Well, but I do like to do it with the men and challenge myself to beat at least a few of them. They seem to have a little bit more, I'm gonna say it, cojones than I do when it comes to the aggression on some of this.

Diana Alt [00:07:05]:
I think there's a lot like there's, you know, I'm all about like, people can do whatever, anything, anything you can do, I can do better kind of stuff. But I think there are some tendencies that sometimes are a little easier for one gender versus the other to come out. So.

Shelby Garlock [00:07:24]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:07:25]:
Cool. Well, thank you for taking us down the autocross journey. That is, that's pretty wild stuff. Acceleration, turning, deceleration. Can't do. Can't do any of them at the same time. You have to do them one at a time. I wish that more people recognized that you have to have a greater degree of focus.

Diana Alt [00:07:47]:
Because isn't the most aggravating thing in the world when someone tells you, well, you just have to multitask whenever really, they just are refusing to set priorities?

Shelby Garlock [00:07:56]:
Mm. A hundred percent.

Diana Alt [00:07:59]:
That one drives me crazy. What's the most important? They're all the most important. I used to deal with that. I back a million and five years ago. I was a CRM developer. So I was working on Siebel, like system configuration and reporting. I was kind of the reporting gal. And there was, I mean any sales department, especially at a company like Cerner, which at the time I worked there was like a 700 million dollar company or something much smaller than when it is sold to oracle, you know, 15 years later.

Diana Alt [00:08:32]:
But I kept saying like they would, I would get these long lists from sales operations of we need this report tweaked and that new report. And I'd ask what's most important and they'd say they all are. And I finally just Looked at the sales ops director and I was like, look, if you don't tell me, I'm going to make it up and you might not like what I make up. And it was the only thing that finally got some priorities set. So you're back. You and I met a billion years ago, 2012.

Shelby Garlock [00:09:05]:
It does seem like a while and all at the same time. It seems like just yesterday too.

Diana Alt [00:09:09]:
I know. That was so wild. Shelby and I both worked at digital marketing agency years ago. We were both in the account services department. So she was an account director, I was an account supervisor, which is a title I'd never heard of because I'd never worked in the agency world. I hate the word supervisor. So I usually tell people I was an account manager, but we found out like within the first couple days that she worked there, that she and I both were working in a marketing firm, but both of us had degrees in chemistry. So tell the people.

Diana Alt [00:09:44]:
How on God's green earth did you go from chemistry to marketing? Because I got that kind of question a lot too. I want to hear from you.

Shelby Garlock [00:09:52]:
Yeah. So people are surprised to hear that I actually got my degree with the intent to go into marketing, specifically pharmaceutical marketing. I thought it would be a good background and set me apart. Never actually did that. You know, life has a way of kind of giving you its own path no matter how type A you are. And yes, I'm 100% type A. Closest I got was running a Marcom team for a search engine for chemists and formulators.

Diana Alt [00:10:25]:
Oh, wow.

Shelby Garlock [00:10:27]:
Yeah, so that's actually was my first step into marketing. I started in sales and this, I cold called this particular company to sell them some new office furniture because they were moving and built a relationship and you know, they figured out what my background is. We talked about what they needed. It's like, hey, this seems like a good fit for us. And so moved on from sales and straight into marketing and never looked.

Diana Alt [00:10:59]:
You went to mart, you went into marketing for a client you were trying to sell to. So here's a question. Did they actually buy the thing you were trying to sell them?

Shelby Garlock [00:11:12]:
I sold them a few chairs.

Diana Alt [00:11:14]:
Sold them some chairs and then they bought from you?

Shelby Garlock [00:11:18]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:11:19]:
Did you, at the time that was going on, did you have any sort of concern about like non competes getting in trouble, like any conflict of interest stuff?

Shelby Garlock [00:11:28]:
No. It was interesting. Well, I shouldn't say no because it was discussed early on, I will say at the company I was hired. It was understood I was looking at sales as a step into marketing. I think every marketer needs to be a salesperson first. So it was never like, hey, this is going to be my career. And quite frankly, we, I mean, now they had an internal advocate to continue to sell for them at the company. So it was, it was an easy conversation to have.

Diana Alt [00:12:02]:
Yeah. So this, I want y' all to hear this. Those of you that are listening to this, at whatever point, whether it's today on the live stream or later on, there's a lot of times that people are trying to think about new opportunities and they forget about things like former customers, former vendors, former competitors. You want to make sure that you're adhering to contracts the best that you can. I mean, you got to eat and live indoors too. So you have to balance those things out. But when you're thinking about looking for a new role, do not forget that if you know a thing and there's not a place for you in your current company, a vendor that sells to you or someone else in the same industry might be a good spot. So that's a really great lesson for everybody.

Diana Alt [00:12:54]:
Sales and marketing. A lot of my audience is actually people that are in tech, but I work a lot with marketing too because I had that. I had that many years in product management before I abandoned corporate life to do coaching full time. There's so little understanding of what this difference between sales and marketing is. How would you explain that to somebody?

Shelby Garlock [00:13:17]:
So sales is more of a one on one experience. It's in marketing while there is what's called direct marketing and it's one to one. But really marketing is a one to many. It is. And depending on the discipline of marketing, you could be defining the brand. If my specialty happens to lie more in life cycle and CRM. So I'm about defining what the customer experience looks like across various aspects of their lifetime, you know, with that brand, whether it's, you know, the start of acquisition through growth, retention, advocacy and loyalty. So it's, it's really about a larger conversation that you're having versus one on one conversation that you're having in the sales process to try to convert someone into, you know that.

Diana Alt [00:14:11]:
That's how I look at it too. I've had people argue with me on that and they're like, but we have sales. Our sales reps have many clients in their territory. I'm like, no, but it's still a.

Shelby Garlock [00:14:20]:
One to one conversation.

Diana Alt [00:14:21]:
Correct. The way, a lot of the way I look at it is that marketing like they're symbiotic, of course, like sales and Marketing feed each other. But when done well, marketing tees up the right information so that people know, oh this might be for me. And then the sales people leverage that information and their relationship with the client to get the deal done.

Shelby Garlock [00:14:45]:
So that's exactly right. So you have the market leads. Yeah, it starts with marketing create marketing qualified leads that turn them over to sales who then sales qualifies them for sales qualified leads and then closes the sale.

Diana Alt [00:14:57]:
Yeah. So marketing qualified versus sales qualified. Like a lot of people watching this, like they don't even know what it means to be a qualified lead. They may have heard that term thrown around. What does qualified mean and what is marketing qualified versus sales qualified?

Shelby Garlock [00:15:16]:
So marketing qualified is. This is the right target customer who needs our product. They this is the right time for them. They've demonstrated some sort of hand raising activity that says yes, I'm interested in this type of product. So those two things really kind of sum up a marketing qualified lead.

Diana Alt [00:15:40]:
Yeah, for me it would be because I'm working with people on job search and career transition and they're not a senior knowledge worker, probably in tech marketing L and D. Raising their hand and saying I'm interested in my career being better would be marketing qualified for me is what you're saying.

Shelby Garlock [00:15:57]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:15:58]:
Okay, talk to me about sales qualified.

Shelby Garlock [00:16:00]:
Then a sales qualified digs in a little deeper. Is there a true symbiotic match? Do we have the right tools, solutions, services, whatever it may be that this person needs for what it is they're trying to solve for? That becomes more of a sales qualified lead. And that's a one on one conversation you usually have. It's pre sales. Who defines a sales qualified lead and then they hand it off to the salesperson to further then do discovery to define the exact solution that they're going to provide that individual company.

Diana Alt [00:16:35]:
So what would be an example of something that kicks somebody out like they were marketing qualified and then sales goes in and starts talking to them or pre sales, whoever it is doing that and goes oh nope, this person is not going to be sales qualified.

Shelby Garlock [00:16:52]:
What are a couple budget is the easiest thing and that's usually the first thing that's talked about. What is your budget like?

Diana Alt [00:16:59]:
Do you have one?

Shelby Garlock [00:17:01]:
Do you have one? Exactly.

Diana Alt [00:17:04]:
Okay, great. Cool. Well thanks for unpacking that. I know that's like a little bit of Marketing 101, but there's a whole lot of people out there that hear about marketing and they don't really know what marketing is. It's like this big thing because it's so big.

Shelby Garlock [00:17:21]:
And actually, do you mind if I go on a little bit? So I was going to ask you.

Diana Alt [00:17:25]:
A question, but I think you're going to go where I want you to go, so. Okay, keep talking.

Shelby Garlock [00:17:29]:
Oftentimes people, when they think of marketing, they think of, well, early in my career. Are you the one who puts the pop ups on my computer? There's a negative connotation associated a lot of times with marketing, like you're invading my experience, you're being creepy. And yes, there is some creepy factor, especially today, the more we're able to, you know, unpack about you. But I think the important thing to take away from marketing, and this is where I'm willing to raise my hand a lot and provide my information because good marketers, what happens is they're not invasive, they're only going to be there. You know, that product is going to be there at the time you need it and they're also not going to do it in a creep factor. Right. So marketing is important. The more information that you can supply to help you know the brands that you love be informed of what's important to you, the better your experience is going to be with that brand.

Shelby Garlock [00:18:33]:
And essentially that's a result of the marketing team. So it's just, it's funny because when people, I don't know about marketing, but it always, you see the grimace on the face and you're doing something that I don't like. Well, in reality, we're actually making your life a whole lot easier if the more information you give to us and the better the marketer is, they can create that seamless experience.

Diana Alt [00:18:58]:
I always find it interesting just when you're thinking about social media in particular, because you'll hear people say, oh, I clicked on this once on accident and this damn ad keeps showing up. And it happens because that that accidental click at some point told someone, I'm interested in this. That's right. Here's the important part. For those of you that haven't figured out how social media algorithms work yet, going and commenting on that ad and bitching that it showed up in your feed is actually telling the company that you want a deeper relationship with them. Whereas if you just quickly scroll on by, they'll start to go, oh, maybe she's not qualified as a marketing lead or sales lead after all because she hasn't looked at anything in a long time. So if you see an ad in your feed you don't like very much, a lot of times the solution is to just scroll on. By or on Facebook, there's like little options that are like, don't show me anything more from this company or whatnot.

Diana Alt [00:20:05]:
So.

Shelby Garlock [00:20:06]:
But then I will. I'll. I'll further. Good marketers, and this is what I'm talking about, will recognize false clicks and actually you take an opportunity. Okay, it was a false click. We're still going to give them an advertisement. Was there an engagement? Nope. Everything that I know about that individual.

Shelby Garlock [00:20:23]:
Yeah, no more. We're gonna shut down.

Diana Alt [00:20:25]:
Doesn't match. Doesn't match. We're done.

Shelby Garlock [00:20:27]:
Again, good marketers, negative interaction with an ad, they pay attention to negative sentiment. No more interaction. No more ads from that person. That's what good marketing is.

Diana Alt [00:20:38]:
The digital. Digital marketing is so complex. Like, most people think I just throw. There's a lot of people in the small business space that I play and they're like, I'm gonna put some ads on that. It'll be fine. And I'm like, my. My question is always like, have you shown that it converts organically? Like, because it. Otherwise you're wasting your money.

Diana Alt [00:20:56]:
But that's a whole topic for another day. You and I chatted and you said that you are interested in agentic AI. This is something that I am so not familiar with, but I'm curious about. I just talked to our mutual friend Brian Engel yesterday about this.

Shelby Garlock [00:21:16]:
Did you.

Diana Alt [00:21:18]:
Messing around with it? Yeah, he's going to Mexico for a year with his family, but he's like, I'm still gonna play with AI. But yeah, he and I were talking about it. He's like, I want you to think about some things you could automate or delegate in your business and maybe we can see if we can build you some agents. I'm like, game on. Let's do it. But I know so little about it. It feels to me like. Like a lot of the things people say, oh, I want to use agents for that.

Diana Alt [00:21:46]:
I'm like, I'm a control freak about that. I don't know if I want agents. What's your take? And have you implemented any in your own life?

Shelby Garlock [00:21:56]:
So I have not personally implemented anything that's ground breaking. How's that? I've been playing around. My take is working, but my take is we have. There's a challenge in the business world today, and that is there's a lack of critical thinking that happens. What and what gasp and say it ain't so? Anyway, people are comfortable with that because they lean into all the busy work that they have to do. Right? And that's where the agents come in. It's like, okay, I can get rid of all that busy work for you. So now you can actually start spending time and thinking critically about the whys and the hows.

Shelby Garlock [00:22:49]:
And it's just, that's where it gets fun and interesting. Generating a report and regurgitating a bunch of metrics. How is that fun? How is anybody enjoying what they do at work when they do that work should feel good. Sorry to plug that, but I'm going.

Diana Alt [00:23:06]:
To push back on that. There are people that legitimately enjoy creating that kind of thing and making sure that it looks, that it looks good and it works for people. So, and this is, I think, where a lot of the fear about AI in the workplace comes from, because there are people that find comfort in performing what is really a repeatable task or like 70, 80% repeatable task very well. And I think those are the people that are the most nervous and hearing, oh my gosh.

Shelby Garlock [00:23:44]:
They shouldn't be nervous, say why? Because say more. It's not I enjoy creating reports, but that being, and I enjoy making them look good. AI is to help you. It's to augment, it's not to replace. And even though we're talking about these agents that are going to do a lot of the work, they're going to give you an output and you get to spend the time kind of cleaning it up, refreshing the, the fun part. And not only that, you know, I find right now I create reports and it's like, okay, where are the insights? And you spend a lot of time looking for the insights rather than regurgitating the metrics. The AI can help you. Here are the, you know, top three outliers, that sort of thing.

Shelby Garlock [00:24:26]:
So then you can start spending time either creating, you know, digging in more in the data. Why are these three things the way they are creating stories, the whys and the hows. That's where it gets interesting. It's not that it's replacing you, it's allowing you to take your level, your work to the next level so you can scale.

Diana Alt [00:24:45]:
I'm a fan of that because when I think about, when I think about my career now, I'm a little different than a lot of people. Like every job interview I've had since like 2002, I've told people I'm basically a four year old and I'm going to question everything that they tell me to do. And so they better like be me asking why all the time. So for me, changing the proportion of like administrative, busy work, whatever you want to call it time so that I can actually think and stare at it is a really good thing because like my friend Terry Weaver says that creativity can only happen in the margins. I think strategy, I think you have to have margin for strategy. I think you have to have margin to really see insights and that kind of stuff. And I often talk to people in their job searches about this. Like I think it, I think this idea of can we remove busy work and put our minds towards strategic thing applies to everything, including job searches.

Diana Alt [00:25:48]:
Yeah, so I often say that like the tactic that people have of apply to 50 jobs and then go try to find recruiters on LinkedIn and send them a copy paste DM that says I applied for your job, which there are a lot of people out there actively coaching. That is not a strategic job search. That is busy work masquerading as a job search, in my opinion. I think my ear is too small for my AirPods. I have this fallout last week too. So anyway, what are some of the things that you see happening with AI in marketing that are going to help marketers feel good? Like especially kind of more junior level marketers. What do you see?

Shelby Garlock [00:26:35]:
It goes back. Marketers spend so much time generating reports and I can't tell you how many meetings I've sat in where somebody is just regurgitating the metrics and not really picking up on the true insights of why things are the way they are, which will then inform how you are, can be more proactive to drive more performance for your business. That is for me, what I see the biggest thing that's going to come out for marketing. I mean there's a lot of other things. Obviously a lot of the generative AI can help, you know, have leaner teams so you can have faster output with, you know, smaller teams for both, you know, written content as well as creative content. I mean those are great. But I guess me at the heart, I love data driven strategy. So I'm just going to lean into the fact that AI can help us do more better and faster simply by not having to generate these reports ourselves and help us get deeper.

Diana Alt [00:27:42]:
Yeah. What makes work feel good to you? Is it being able to spend more time on that? Like, what are some of the aspects that make work feel really good to you? So it's the name of the show. We should probably get there 30 minutes in.

Shelby Garlock [00:27:58]:
Yeah, we should. I did plug it earlier. You might have missed it.

Diana Alt [00:28:03]:
Keep talking.

Shelby Garlock [00:28:06]:
I get excited about opportunities where I can contribute to building something, building an impactful program, something that May change, you know, the business in some fundamental way and I especially like to use data to do that. I like to work with usually when it, when it's that large of a fundamental change, it's working with cross functional teams. So I like to be able to learn from others. As much as I tell my family I'm perfect in every way between us, that's not true.

Diana Alt [00:28:41]:
I still have, I won't tell them.

Shelby Garlock [00:28:45]:
So I, I love learning as part of that process by working with the cross functional teams. That's, that's where I mean I see it as an adventure, you know, creating new innovative solutions.

Diana Alt [00:28:59]:
What's one of the most impactful or exciting outcomes that you were part of a team to bring forth?

Shelby Garlock [00:29:11]:
I'm not sure they were all. I've had a lot.

Diana Alt [00:29:17]:
Lucky girl.

Shelby Garlock [00:29:20]:
Yeah, I have been very lucky in my career if I were. They're all different. So I'll say, you know, the search in for chemists and formulators, I mean that was, we're not going to talk about how long ago, but that was a long time ago. That was innovative. That was something new. And when I started there we had two what we called cyberaries or libraries. Paint, coatings and clever right back in the day but it was just paint and coatings and personal care and cosmetics. And by the time I left we had five different cyberaries including beverage.

Shelby Garlock [00:29:58]:
And that was just really exciting to be a part of that and grow. I mean I've sat on teams on both sides of the M and A business, you know, doing due diligence to acquire as well as, you know, afterwards helping integrate companies. I've helped sell off and that's been exciting. So you know, helping a company, helping that due diligence team understand how, how these products and brands may fit within their company. And so they're, they're unique opportunities that I've had that I'm excited about in. Most recently at Zeta Global I was, you know, when I joined them, they were a private company and I got to help them. Launching the Zeta marketing platform. I sold their very first instance of the AI data cloud.

Shelby Garlock [00:30:52]:
And those are really exciting opportunities. They're fundamental changes in these businesses that I got to be a part of.

Diana Alt [00:31:01]:
I love that for a lot of reasons. One of which is that aside from the fact that today people know that like the different apps and social media and whatnot, like they're collecting data on you, a lot of people really don't have a clear understanding of how much that marketing is truly the measure of our like it's the mashup of art and science. Because the, the coolest logo that you've ever seen on a new brand or on your, your, your, your Apple phone, your like whatever brand it is that you like to buy, that is marketing too. So fun. Logo is marketing. The silly catchphrase is marketing. The completely ridiculous like Duncan Bros. Commercial during the super bowl with Matt Damon and Ben Affleck.

Diana Alt [00:31:53]:
That's marketing. It's advertising too.

Shelby Garlock [00:31:56]:
Yeah. Marketing and advertising.

Diana Alt [00:31:59]:
But yeah, I think that that's really kind of interesting. So I have. I could talk to you all day. We're not going to do that. I advertise to the people that. We're going to talk about visibility because you and I work together as I've known you for 10 plus years, but we work together in a kind of coach and client ARR. Yeah, for a while last year and at the time we worked together, you were just this LinkedIn lurker, like you were trying to meet invisible. So now you're creating some of the best marketing content that I've seen from people outside of like truly being a like large marketing consulting brand.

Diana Alt [00:32:43]:
So tell us a little bit about what you were thinking before you started doing content and kind of the journey to where you are now, which is, you know, at least a few times a week you're publishing content these days.

Shelby Garlock [00:32:56]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:32:58]:
And what has it done for you?

Shelby Garlock [00:33:01]:
So lurking is so true. I'm a Facebook lurker too. I'm aging myself.

Diana Alt [00:33:09]:
I like Facebook. I'm not, I'm not scared.

Shelby Garlock [00:33:13]:
Yeah, I'm okay. I'm embracing it. When I first started with LinkedIn and the lurking, I saw the opportunity to do article contributions and it was a great way to kind of.

Diana Alt [00:33:27]:
Why were you lurking?

Shelby Garlock [00:33:30]:
Why was I lurking?

Diana Alt [00:33:31]:
How's this? I want to, I actually want to talk about this. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but. No, we want to talk about like why were you just lurking to begin with? Because this is a common thing for people that are corporate professionals. Whether they're looking for a job, whether they are at a company that they're perfectly happy with and would stay there. They are terrified to do anything. What was your reason for only lurking?

Shelby Garlock [00:33:58]:
So wasn't being terrified to do anything. It was leaning in to learn from others. So while we say lurking, we say it jokingly. It was one of my ways to learn. I love to read books, but especially in my space in the digital world. You know, by the time it comes out in the book. Right. It's obsolete.

Shelby Garlock [00:34:23]:
It was Yesterday's news. And LinkedIn gives me that real time hearing from others who are testing things and learning from them so that I can take that information and apply it elsewhere, you know, try it out myself. So we could, we joke and say lurking like it's a bag, that thing. But it was more about observing and listening. And then I was like, well, you know what? I could dip my toes. And I, you know, did the article contribution. But you know, Diana being Diana was like, dude, come on. Yeah, yeah, you challenged me, right? You, you said if I really, you know, I need to show off my skills, I need to have my own articles.

Shelby Garlock [00:35:10]:
And I was like, I don't know if that's for me. I wasn't never, you know, I've never thought of myself as a writer. I'm, I'm a scientist. I like to do reports, I like to tell stories about reports. But I've never really thought of myself as a writer. But, you know, you challenge me. Challenge accepted. And I, I decided, I think you were the one who gave me my first set of articles.

Shelby Garlock [00:35:36]:
You said, write something about CRM marketing. So I wrote a series. Right. I think that's right. And I did a series on that. And when I first got in, I was like, okay, what if nobody likes my stuff? So then I'm like that fear, oh my goodness. So I reached out to people within my network and hey, I posted this. Check this out.

Shelby Garlock [00:35:58]:
Can you like and comment on it? Of course. Because that's me as the marketer. If I'm getting likes and comments, then it helps the algorithm so that more people can see my information, right?

Diana Alt [00:36:09]:
Yeah.

Shelby Garlock [00:36:10]:
And then I've decided I.

Diana Alt [00:36:15]:
I'm actually looking at those articles that you did. You started that last summer, right?

Shelby Garlock [00:36:20]:
I did. I started that last summer. But I, what I found in writing them is I enjoyed it, but it wasn't. So I actually enjoyed it as the outlet of writing. And so I actually started. Decided to take a little bit of a step back. Just like you said, there's a lot of marketing experts, there's a lot of customer success account experts on LinkedIn. And that's not what I was envisioning for me in writing.

Shelby Garlock [00:36:53]:
So it's like, okay, what is important to me if I, I don't care about people liking my stuff, I'm enjoying this whole writing thing. I'm liking the outlet that it provides me. And if my desire isn't want to be one of those experts, what kind of stuff do I want to write about? And I'm like, well, if I'm looking at LinkedIn more as a journal, an outlet, then it's really about capturing the ideas that pop into my head or interesting conversations that I've had. So that's really where I've been leaning into. And what I found is really my niche is more about leadership and career development in my space. Not from the form of coaching, but things that make you go, hmm, right, yeah, yeah, I need my own coach. I'm not a coach. That's why I have you.

Shelby Garlock [00:37:41]:
But things that you know, in the marketing space, truly any space, I write about things that you know, hey, think. Consider this as you're thinking about your career, more about behavioral things. I mean, one of my recent posts just this past week is, you know, the smartest person in the room is usually the quietest. Of course, on the flip side, the loudest person in the room is probably the one you want to listen to least. And I mean, I raised my hand. I am allowed talker and I own that.

Diana Alt [00:38:10]:
But we say as we're here on a live stream, right, That'll be on a podcast platform. But those are seriously.

Shelby Garlock [00:38:20]:
Yeah. To think about. And so I see myself more in that leadership space and. And helping others in their career to think about, you know, who they are, behavioral things. They need to consider that sort of thing.

Diana Alt [00:38:32]:
I really love what I've been seeing from you, and I think that it's important because there's a lot of messages out there that say you should only talk about one thing on LinkedIn. And that makes people feel very scared sometimes because they're like, well, I'm a project manager in SAS and I can only talk about this, but there's so much to that field, or I'm interested in other things. And my take is this because I started a lot the way you were. I started out reading a lot, then I started hanging out in the comments. And if I think about your learning example, what I would maybe say is, for anybody that's thinking, well, I'm like Shelby, I like to read in order to learn. Think about starting to engage in comments of people talking about interesting stuff. And it's almost like a Socratic experience where it can become question and answer. And I've had many people that I've coached over the years that I'll say, well, if you want to, like, help make this pivot or get to know about an industry or, like, get some visibility, then go hang out in the comments for a couple months and just see how you feel.

Diana Alt [00:39:43]:
And they'll say, well, what, what if I don't know anything? I'm like, then ask the question. If someone posts a post about something that you're interested in and you read it and you're like, this is super interesting. What about X? I'd like to learn more about X. They're probably not going to just blow you off unless they have, you know, a lot going on or many, many comments or something like that. People love that because when we create comment content, we don't usually when we do it online, we're not just wanting it to never be seen or engaged with by somebody. That's what your journal on your, you know, your journal by your bedside is for that. So yeah, you did some really, you do some really great stuff though. What I was gonna say that I've seen from you, number one, you created a body of work that shows competency about marketing.

Diana Alt [00:40:35]:
So if any of you guys let me just. I'm actually going to put your social, your LinkedIn up so people can go look at it. Shelby wrote a series of six articles that she released over six weeks. And because she's a marketer, even the images like tie together visually because she's an aesthetically smart person, but that can sit there while you talk about other things. So a person that's looking to hire you and like you would go in at what, director, VP level, at least in an organization, depending on the size, they're going to care about whether you know marketing and they're going to care about whether you can lead a team. And so by looking at these articles that she wrote before she decided she didn't want to mostly talk about, about marketing on LinkedIn, you can see, well, she at least knows what she's talking about. And then you can see kind of who you are as a person by the stuff that you write about leadership or other tips for getting along in your career. I love it.

Diana Alt [00:41:38]:
I think it's great. And you're talking about some stuff that gets people not just to be like fully functional 20 somethings, but like some of the stuff about. You wrote a post about like cost centers versus revenue centers or something like that earlier this week. That's things that, that can take you from like manager to director. So there's, there's content that you're doing that helps people all throughout. So I love it. I think, I hope you keep doing it. I think you're gonna accidentally make marketing leaders even if you didn't mean to.

Diana Alt [00:42:11]:
So.

Shelby Garlock [00:42:12]:
Well, it was not my intent. I do want to jump on your topic about comments because I completely, as an oversight, didn't even hit on that because that was something else you challenged me with not only to write my own articles, but to comment. And we had that exact same conversation because about the lurking and all of that. I like to, you know, read. I, I'm, I like to be the quietest person in the room, not necessarily the smartest, but I like to be the quietest person and observe and take everything in. But don't you have questions? Well, yeah, sometimes. Well then ask them questions. And I will say, and I haven't had to share it, had an opportunity to share this, but I have built some great relationships through commenting and further, you know, as a career coach, I've actually reached out to somebody I've never met in person.

Shelby Garlock [00:43:07]:
I've only, we've commented on posts together and there was a company who or somebody was hiring and he was a mutual connection and I reached out to him and we had built enough of a good rapport that he was more than willing to give me an introduction to this individual.

Diana Alt [00:43:26]:
Oh, that's so cool.

Shelby Garlock [00:43:28]:
Yeah, I'm having coffee with someone else. He sent me a message and said I've been such a huge supporter of his content and asked to have a virtual con coffee. Just let's start to get to know each other. And these are not just, I mean, these are people who are, you know, experts in their field who I've built relationships with. So don't be afraid to do that. I mean, that's, it's huge.

Diana Alt [00:43:51]:
I love that you told those stories and that you once again predicted my question because I was just about to ask you, like, what kind of results have you seen from commenting or otherwise engaging on social media? And one of the things I've personally seen well before I pivoted fully into my career and executive coaching business, I was mostly writing about like product management, agile, software development, like that kind of stuff for a long time because that was the place that I held when I was in corporate America and I would get offers to speak on stages. I had people present, I was more visible to be presented with job opportunities. One of my favorite things that ever happened was I was working at Ascend Learning a few years ago and we were hiring people into our product management teams and like into some Scrum master roles. And those are two places I've, I've been in. And there was somebody that actually said that they applied for the role at the company because they'd been following my content about Agile and they thought it would Be really cool to work with me. And people that were like me and I was like, well, that's pretty cool. They went wrong. Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:45:11]:
And I've. It's also helped me get referrals in my business, you know, people that I've never. But I've turned, I've turned LinkedIn people into legit friends, which doesn't seem like something that you should be able to do to a lot of people, but we do it at work. Like you were my work wife for two years, so yeah, that's pretty cool.

Shelby Garlock [00:45:32]:
One of the things I have found about my content, as I've been leaning into more of this, you know, bigger level things to consider as you're trying to boost your career is I'm getting a lot of individual DMs, less engagement on the posts, but people, people reaching out and wanting to talk about things. And I think it's probably because it's private. Like people aren't necessarily willing to be vulnerable, you know, online in comments to talk about that. So I found that interesting.

Diana Alt [00:46:03]:
That is so true for anything related to career and leadership. Whenever the person that you're really speaking to is currently employed, like they're not also a coach, they're not a visible executive leader. I have had people that I never even knew were following me. Never so much as clicked, like on a post that have then booked a call and then bought a program that was like four or five thousand dollars and we ended up working together for six plus months on, you know, a job search or otherwise doing career shifts. So that's a really great point because on LinkedIn, I don't know the exact stats. I've heard that like less than 10% of people ever create any content on LinkedIn. It might be even less than that, but not very many people comment. You know, maybe there's 2 or 3% of people actually actively creating content on the regular.

Diana Alt [00:47:04]:
And then there's another like 10 or 15% of people that will even comment a couple of times a month. That means there's a whole lot of people that are on the platform that are watching what's going on like you were. So never underestimate the power of that. And for people that are wondering, like, well, I don't have a lot of time. Sometimes all it takes is a post every once in a while or even just like active commenting and then having a few posts or articles that show your competence because people do. Check out your LinkedIn profile. I want to poke at, I have a. I want to poke at industry Switches.

Diana Alt [00:47:46]:
So you are a marketer who has worked in a number of industries. And something that I've heard from particularly a lot of product managers, but also a lot of people in marketing and marketing adjacent roles, is how do I pivot industries? And I have my answer of how I did that because I was never loyal to one industry. But what's been your experience trying to be seen as credible in different industries in a world where a lot of times everybody wants you to sprout fully formed from the head of Zeus with 20 years of experience in certain industry here.

Shelby Garlock [00:48:24]:
Right. And come up with experience on this platform longer than the platform's been alive.

Diana Alt [00:48:29]:
Right, exactly. Please give us 30 years of Salesforce experience when it's only existed for 20. So exactly how have you worked on that or worked through that issue?

Shelby Garlock [00:48:41]:
It's. And what's interesting, it's a great question for me because if you do look at my profile, I have pretty much been across a lot of different industries. I've only even within the agency space, the industries I've served have changed across each agency that I've worked in. So it's really about demonstrating transferable skills and knowledge. So you have to understand the business that you're. You're talking to, the industry that you're moving into and being able to connect what you've done previously that's transferable and relevant to the industry you're looking to move into. I also think that it's important to demonstrate your ability to learn. So one of the things that I get complimented on frequently, and this is whether it's for interviews or even clients when I'm in the agency space, is how quickly I bring myself up to be perceived at least as an expert in that industry.

Shelby Garlock [00:49:47]:
And it doesn't take a lot of time, especially now that we have AI. I actually have some standard prompts that I use to help bring me up to speed on current events, news, that sort of thing. History. Give me all the important things for me that would be necessary to know in order to do my job and talk, have an intelligent conversation about what's going on in the industry. So I think that's. It's really those transferable skills and being able to demonstrate how quickly you can learn and what you know about that industry.

Diana Alt [00:50:25]:
Yeah, I love that. And especially the part about learning, because that's what I used to do early in my career. I spent a couple years, I had time in consulting, like kind of implementation consulting, you know, before the tech rec. And then I found myself where I had A little bit of experience doing a lot of different things in a few industries that wasn't. I had trouble figuring out how to make it stick after so many people got laid off during the tech wreck. And then what I learned at that time was that I should worry less about industry and more about what I was. And so early in my career I build myself as like a person that was very good with processes in the software development life cycle because I did have strength in that. I had explicit training in it.

Diana Alt [00:51:17]:
And then later on it became more about. I'm a software product developer, product manager slash agile expert. And so what I tended to do is say, well, you have a million people here that know your industry, but you don't have very many people that understand how to effectively do product management. So that's the benefit.

Shelby Garlock [00:51:37]:
That's the transferable skill right there.

Diana Alt [00:51:39]:
Exactly. That's the benefit of this. I had stories that I could explain how I actually do better my first two years working in something because when I can walk in with as close to beginner's mind as possible and not have like 10 years of we've always done it this way, I'm a more effective resource. So I had a couple stories on that. One of which was from the agency that we worked at. I was on the KBM side and you were still on. I don't know what it was, agencies rename themselves all the time. But I got pulled into this client that wasn't even mine, but some, some Yahoo in sales had sold a big project to an airline which I had no experience with other than riding on airplanes, but they'd sold these SLAs that we didn't even know how to track.

Diana Alt [00:52:28]:
And so I ended up getting pulled in to help the account director on that actually figure out what we were going to do. And were there things that were, you know, can we easily add some things to track or could we go back and redefine this metric a little bit so that it was easier to prove because I'd had experience with it in a totally different setting, in a totally different industry, in a totally different job. So that's the kind of stories that I was able to tell. I want to switch to a little bit of. I have kind of what I call lightning ish rounds where I have some questions to throw at you that should be fast, but then sometimes they aren't. And then I want to hear about like what's going on with you and tell the people how they can find you if they want to hang out and be friends. So the first question I have is what is the worst piece of career advice you've ever received?

Shelby Garlock [00:53:22]:
Okay, so I've, I've received.

Diana Alt [00:53:25]:
This is going to be good. Like you have that, you have that demeanor. Like. Yeah, buckle up. Okay, well.

Shelby Garlock [00:53:32]:
And the reason why I say this, because this piece of advice was an early. I received it early and it has affected me for a good part of my 15 plus years. But it was make sure you check your email at night because a lot of emails get sent out after hours. I was young, I'm in a startup space. So I mean, that makes sense. Startup. But I didn't truly. This is going to make a great post by the way.

Shelby Garlock [00:54:05]:
Look for it in LinkedIn later on. I failed to learn how to set boundaries early in my career.

Diana Alt [00:54:15]:
Checking email. I check email every night. That's gross.

Shelby Garlock [00:54:19]:
Yeah. So I mean I had my entire career, I had accepted that that is standard, proto, not my entire. I, I started figuring it out at a later date that, that, that is just impossible to have a good work life balance.

Diana Alt [00:54:40]:
Yeah.

Shelby Garlock [00:54:41]:
And do that. There's a lot of demonstration, you know, going on PTO and still, you know, checking your email regularly. That sort of thing. It's the same idea. And so I'd say that's the worst career advice, and I would sum it up is basically don't set boundaries and your work is your life. I mean, that's essentially what was said to me. Yeah, I had that too figured out. That was wrong.

Diana Alt [00:55:06]:
My, my parents were teachers that grew up on farms. And if there's any two professions that like, the only one that I can think of that has less boundaries than those two is pastor.

Shelby Garlock [00:55:20]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:55:22]:
My fun tip whenever I was really starting to push back on that is that I, I deactivated work email on my phone. So I didn't like delete it. I had the account there shut off. And so the trust that I had with a couple of the key resources I worked with at the time is if there was something that truly has to be dealt with before tomorrow morning, text me.

Shelby Garlock [00:55:45]:
That's right.

Diana Alt [00:55:46]:
That there's an email and I will go and look at it and deal with it. So I would do that and then turn it right back off. And I do that same thing to this day with my own business. My work email is not on my tablet or my phone 99% of the time. Okay. Second, what is a red flag in a job interview that people ignore way too often?

Shelby Garlock [00:56:10]:
Okay. That people ignore. Okay. That's.

Diana Alt [00:56:13]:
You can do it either you can do either like as a candidate or as the hiring or tell both.

Shelby Garlock [00:56:20]:
But well, so just talk for a red flag for me and maybe my space, but it could be transferable to a lot of different roles. Is when somebody an interview asks me, you know, how would you approach this? And I give my answer and the response back is, why wouldn't you consider? And then they give a shady way to do it. And in marketing there's a lot of shady ways to do things. So that's why I'm like, this is more, more fitting maybe for my role. But what I have found is when I have accepted roles where the interview process was that way, the expectation was that I was going to be an order taker and deliver things the way that they wanted it delivered, even shady ways. And if you're hiring me to do a role, let me do my role. Let me be an expert. I'm not here to be an order taker.

Shelby Garlock [00:57:17]:
Work doesn't feel good when I'm an order taker. Yeah, I left the company in less than 30 days because of it. So.

Diana Alt [00:57:25]:
Oh, good for you. Like, like claps for leaving for ethical reasons. I'm a big fan of that. There's so much narrative of like, oh, you have to stay at least a year or two no matter what.

Shelby Garlock [00:57:37]:
No, like, by the way, I can't tell you what that company's name was because I don't remember. I've never put it on my resume. I have it on nothing because as far as I'm concerned, it didn't happen. Yeah, I don't want to be associated with it.

Diana Alt [00:57:49]:
There's a saying that sometimes business owners will talk about like hire slow and fire fast. And I think that employees need to fire unethical employers fast. What is a mindset shift that has made a really big difference for you?

Shelby Garlock [00:58:09]:
Assuming positive intent. So, and I, I will say I'm.

Diana Alt [00:58:14]:
I'm assuming that you were you assuming negative before and then chose to assume positive or was it the other way right around?

Shelby Garlock [00:58:21]:
So we all have, you know, received like an email that was short or I don't know, maybe somebody didn't respond for a couple of days, like text and you're like, dude, what's happening? That that is a neg. You. It's an innately a negative response rather than when you ensue assume positive intent. Say, oh, the email was short. Maybe they were busy. They even though they didn't answer all my questions, maybe they were busy. Can I follow up and ask some questions or Ask when there's a good time that maybe we can connect and talk one on one. Maybe email is not the right channel, so it's assuming the positive intent rather than being put off that they didn't answer all my questions right.

Diana Alt [00:59:05]:
Yeah.

Shelby Garlock [00:59:06]:
If they didn't respond for a long time, well, why aren't they responding? You know, are they mad at me? What's going on? Usually people have a negative response to not getting to being ghosted, essentially. Right. And it might not have anything to do with you. It has to do with them. Maybe something tragic has happened that they haven't even been able to, you know, be near their phone to, you know, maybe they're in the hospital. Who knows what's happening? So don't automatically assume the worst. Just assume positive intent. And I will tell you, I'm not perfect at it.

Shelby Garlock [00:59:39]:
And my husband's really good sometimes at reminding me. I will.

Diana Alt [00:59:44]:
Sometimes I switch to that too. And like, there's a fundamental human need. Like, humans are pack animals. We're social creatures. And so when we don't hear back, that gets into that. You need to belong to the pack for safety. So when your boss does not email you back about the thing that you asked about, you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna get fired. Like, there's all kinds of psychological stuff that goes on there.

Diana Alt [01:00:07]:
I am pretty good about this because sometimes I just have to remember how many unread emails I have. And then I'm like, yes, this person probably has 10 times more unread emails.

Shelby Garlock [01:00:18]:
That's right. That's right.

Diana Alt [01:00:20]:
What is something you've changed your mind about recently?

Shelby Garlock [01:00:26]:
Okay, I know those questions sound the.

Diana Alt [01:00:30]:
Same, but they're really not.

Shelby Garlock [01:00:32]:
No, they're not. This is one that's interesting. And I have recently learned that you can be stressed and not realize it.

Diana Alt [01:00:44]:
Yeah. Say more about this. This is so real. Keep going.

Shelby Garlock [01:00:49]:
It is. And for the longest time, I believed my job wasn't stressful. I would even sometimes say, I've got a kush job. I mean, I'm not the one, you know, especially in agency life. I'm not the one standing in front of the board of, you know, this retailers board talking about the results. I'm just an extension of the team helping them, you know, so how much stress could I actually have? Well, the reality was there's a lot of stress because I want these people to be successful. I want to do right by them. I want my company to be successful.

Shelby Garlock [01:01:20]:
But I was downplaying the amount of stress and it, it's, it's costly. And so much so that even last year, you know, I had a health scare as a result of it. And so I've had to really take a step back and, you know, do a lot of, you know, thinking about, you know, what, what does my work life balance look like, what, what's important to me, that sort of thing. How do I manage my stress levels? Let's go back to the boundaries conversation we had earlier. I, you know, struggle with boundaries still today, so need to focus more on that to manage the stress levels.

Diana Alt [01:02:01]:
Cool. That whole note, I think it's very powerful to think about. You can be stressed without knowing that you're stressed. Because there's a lot of people that will go from like, they seem perfectly fine to all of a sudden they're out on medical leave with burnout. And a lot of times they've spent a lot of time not knowing they're stressed. Then they realize they're stressed and think, well, I should be able to muscle, muscle through. And for many people, especially those Type A's like you, like, it's so far gone by the time you notice it that you're. It really is a dangerous place.

Diana Alt [01:02:37]:
So what is a common misperception people have about your work?

Shelby Garlock [01:02:45]:
So I'm a marketer, and so oftentimes it is, well, you're an expert in all things marketing.

Diana Alt [01:02:53]:
That's a lot to be an expert in.

Shelby Garlock [01:02:55]:
That is a lot, you know, and I, you know, try to help people understand. Okay, there's two types of marketing if you want to break it down, traditional and digital. I'm an expert on the digital side. But you can further break it down. There's over, like, 20 disciplines. You know, there's brand marketing, there's social marketing, influencer marketing, search engine marketing, product marketing. I mean, I can just go on CRM marketing, growth marketing. Those are all disciplines of marketing that take a lot of time and expertise, you know, that are different from the other disciplines.

Shelby Garlock [01:03:33]:
And yes, there's a lot of transferability and so forth, but being an expert in one doesn't automatically make you an expert in another. So.

Diana Alt [01:03:41]:
Cool. Well, thanks for the lightning round. What's going on with Shelby, Max? What are, what are you working on?

Shelby Garlock [01:03:50]:
Well, so I've taken some time off and been doing a lot of reflection and, you know, do I want to continue working, that sort of thing? And I definitely do. Work is something that, I mean, I'll probably work till the day I die. It's what makes me feel like a productive member of society. So I stepped in back into consulting. And I know I've shared this with you. I just, while I enjoy the work, I enjoy more being a part of a team, being a part of something bigger. So I will continue doing my consulting. But I am, you know, looking for that next opportunity, trying to be very thoughtful about where that is and what that is.

Shelby Garlock [01:04:38]:
So who knows? Cool.

Diana Alt [01:04:40]:
So you're looking to lead a team that can create some business growth and great experiences and there's a lot of buckets under marketing that that could fall into where you could have an impact, basically. So you, if you guys would like to get a hold of Shelby, whoops, I've had it on there for a while. She, as we can hear from this conversation, loves to connect with people on LinkedIn. So her LinkedIn is right up there. I don't think there are any other Shelby Garlocks probably on planet Earth, but I haven't found any other Shelby Gar.

Shelby Garlock [01:05:16]:
And in fact, I, I got an itinerary to cruise one time because of it and I'm like, I would love.

Diana Alt [01:05:21]:
To go, but it's not gone on the cruise. That would have been great. Well, this is the Shelby Garlock that is on LinkedIn. She'd love to connect. Go. If you are trying to figure out how you could put some of your expertise out, I highly recommend you go look at her profile and check out the articles that she did about marketing and then see kind of what she's done with some of the other content that she writes regular posts about. So thanks so much for joining. Work should feel good.

Diana Alt [01:05:49]:
Shelby, I'm so glad that you were able to do that. All right, have a good day, everyone. Hey, are you sabotaging your job search without even realizing it? You might be. I break down the most common job search mistakes and how to fix them in my free [email protected] so go grab it today. And that's it for this episode of Work should feel good. If something made you laugh, think, cry, or just want to yell yes at your phone, send it to a friend, hit follow, hit subscribe, do all the things. And even better, leave a review if you've got a sec. I'm not going to tell you to give it five stars.

Diana Alt [01:06:31]:
You get to decide if I earned them. Work should feel good. Let's make that your reality.