Diana Alt [00:00:01]:
Hey. Hey there, everybody. And welcome to Work Should Feel Good, the show where your career growth meets your real life. I'm your host, Diana Alt, and today my guest Lucy Norris and I are going to discuss how to pursue meaningful work without letting your job become your entire identity. Lucy, who is a former client of mine, has built a career at the intersection of food well being, workplace experience experience, and meaningful work, which is 100 my jam. She was one of the first people I thought of to be on a show called Work Should Feel Good from my client roster because of that, from non profit leadership and food systems to her current role leading workplace dining experiences at Amazon, she is passionate about helping create environments where people can do their best work without losing themselves in the process.

Lucy Norris [00:00:50]:
Welcome to the party, Lucy. Thanks, Diana. So glad. I'm so glad to be here.

Diana Alt [00:00:55]:
I am too. It's been just over a year since you started at Amazon, right?

Lucy Norris [00:01:00]:
Yeah, just.

Diana Alt [00:01:01]:
Can you believe it? Like, blank.

Lucy Norris [00:01:04]:
It has flown by.

Diana Alt [00:01:06]:
I started the podcast, like, not like, right around when you got your offer. And I wrote down if Lucy's still doing this in a year, I'm glad you waited.

Lucy Norris [00:01:17]:
My first.

Diana Alt [00:01:19]:
It's too much. Like, I usually wait like, at least six months before I pull somebody in because they've got to get their legs under them. But one thing I wanted to know before we get into all of this cool workplace and wellbeing and the story of how you ended up at Amazon, I want to know about Daruma dolls. So is that how you say it? You mentioned it in your form that you filled out as a podcast guest and an inspiration hired you, and I'm. I don't know what the hell. I mean, I googled it.

Lucy Norris [00:01:49]:
Right.

Diana Alt [00:01:50]:
Well, tell me about the Daruma dolls and how that's meaningful to you.

Lucy Norris [00:01:54]:
Okay. Ultimately, it is a. It's Japanese, and I'm clearly not Japanese, but I did go to Japan a couple of years ago for a walking trip.

Diana Alt [00:02:06]:
Cool.

Lucy Norris [00:02:07]:
And our guide, who, you know, lived in Japan, he was telling me in our group about this little doll. It's a Daruma doll. You can look it up. It's D A R U M A. And if you've never heard of it, it's you. It has these little white eyes in it. And you sort of say, I'm gonna start a project. I'm gonna set a goal.

Lucy Norris [00:02:31]:
I'm going to make an intention. And once you make that intention, you sort of black out one of the eyes. One of the eyes. And you put that in a visible sp spot and you Know where you'll see it. Oh, and you work towards that goal. And so when you finish the project or goal or whatever, you black out the other eye. And then there's a whole process for clearing the space for a new project or a new goal. And that really resonated with me because I.

Lucy Norris [00:03:01]:
Looking back on it, I never thought of myself as someone who was very goal oriented, but I clearly am someone who's very goal. I mean, I've met you because I was like, I love this idea. And, you know, of course we can have all kinds of conversations about cultural appropriation, but I love this and I think it's a great idea. And it actually did help me. And I've had several different big goals that I have used my Daruma doll placed in above my mantle or in my doorway where I set my keys. And yeah, I. I can.

Diana Alt [00:03:37]:
I have a lot of feelings. I'll give you the. We could talk all day about culture.

Lucy Norris [00:03:42]:
Okay, good.

Diana Alt [00:03:42]:
Here's my take. There's a difference between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation. And when you're using something in the spirit of which it's intended, that to me is cultural appreciation. Yeah, that's what you're describing. So I'll tell you where we. Where Westerners like to do cultural appropriation, and it's ikigai, because people do not understand that. They draw this big, complicated Venn diagram and then act like the middle of Ikigai is about, did you start a business that makes a million dollars that you love? Which is like, cool if you do it, but that is not what ikigai is about. So.

Lucy Norris [00:04:26]:
Right, right.

Diana Alt [00:04:28]:
Please, please stop. Coaches working in the career and business space and in the life coach space. Please stop it with that Venn diagram. Please stop it. Like, learn what it actually is and then teach that. End of ranch.

Lucy Norris [00:04:42]:
Right.

Diana Alt [00:04:44]:
So you use. What are some of the goals that you have used with your Daruma doll?

Lucy Norris [00:04:50]:
Yeah. So the first one was I set a goal. It was shortly after my trip home, and I thought, and I bought some Daruma dolls while I was in Japan, came home and decided, I am going for it. And this was before I was laid off at my last job. And I thought, I really want to do some consulting. I really want to develop this business. I feel very also entrepreneurial. I want to see if I can get something off the ground.

Lucy Norris [00:05:20]:
And so my goal was to prop up my business, get all the documents and the legal things at a website, an llc, and get a first paid job.

Diana Alt [00:05:35]:
Cool.

Lucy Norris [00:05:36]:
That was. That was.

Diana Alt [00:05:37]:
That was The. That was the goal.

Lucy Norris [00:05:39]:
Took me a year and a half. But I also, I. During that time, I got laid off and started thinking, you know what? I already have this already halfway there. Now I have the time to really get out there and try to get some clients.

Diana Alt [00:05:56]:
And I'm of the opinion that like, almost anybody that's been working for more than five to 10 years, like, should just have an LLC. I mean, like, if you're in California, it's super expensive. I'm in Kansas.

Lucy Norris [00:06:08]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:06:08]:
It costs like $150 to register it the first time and like 50 bucks to renew it.

Lucy Norris [00:06:13]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:06:14]:
So I just think you should have a bank account.

Lucy Norris [00:06:17]:
Well, and I can tell you during my networking, which I know we're going to talk about, I met someone who. Who recommended a book called I Live in Seattle, Washington, how to be self employed in Seattle. And I got that book and I just went through.

Diana Alt [00:06:33]:
Check the boxes. Check the boxes. How cool. What a fun. That's. That's niche. Yeah.

Lucy Norris [00:06:41]:
And then the other one, I bought a house. I set a goal. It took me two years and market fluctuations and a layoff and being rehired again. And. And you know, my money situation, like this little bit of a roller coaster. But that was a big one, so I was able to do that. And the Daruma dolls kept me on track.

Diana Alt [00:07:05]:
Is it like one doll per goal?

Lucy Norris [00:07:07]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:07:08]:
Okay, so then you have your little collection that's like. Yeah.

Lucy Norris [00:07:11]:
I mean, it's not like that was my own. That those. I'm trying to. To determine, like, what is the next big thing that will help me feel like I'm moving forward and give me a milestone to work.

Diana Alt [00:07:23]:
Yeah, right.

Lucy Norris [00:07:25]:
The Daruma doll was a physical manifestation of. Of that intention instead of me. Because I can also get like, I want to do this and I want to do this and I want to do this. And then I'm like, I'm gonna spend my time on. So it's like this one. And then the face just represents that unfinished. You gotta keep working on this. And that one eye would just peer at you.

Lucy Norris [00:07:50]:
Like, I'm doing it. I'm on track.

Diana Alt [00:07:51]:
All right, that's really cool. Thank you for sharing that. So you have an interesting career because like, when you say all of the things, they don't all seem like they go together because you've got food systems and you have workplace experience and you've consulted, which is the thing that nobody understands if they haven't consulted non profits. But what do you think is the common thread that connects all this wild history of yours.

Lucy Norris [00:08:20]:
Right. I think making a difference in my work that helps people have a better quality of life, no matter if they're at work or home or in their communities. That it's somehow contributing to the sustainability of our planet and our natural resources. That it connects people to one another in a shared goal that's very human centered.

Diana Alt [00:08:54]:
Mm.

Lucy Norris [00:08:57]:
And just making the world a better place, one process improvement at a time.

Diana Alt [00:09:05]:
Yeah. I love, I love that you said that. Because I talk to a lot of people about some flavor of that question, and the whole I want to make the world a better place comes up a lot because that's the kind of people I draw in. Like, I'm a little bit of a capitalist. Let's not, you know, I'm. I'm not like an anti capitalist person like some people are these days. I like money, I like business, but I don't draw in the people that only care about money.

Lucy Norris [00:09:37]:
Yeah, but see, I'm one of those people that thinks that's a false choice. You either care about money and you don't care about the planet or care about people or health.

Diana Alt [00:09:47]:
I agree. I'm like, no, you can do both,

Lucy Norris [00:09:50]:
and then you can do both. Those in balance.

Diana Alt [00:09:54]:
Right.

Lucy Norris [00:09:55]:
It's harder, yes, Harder. But that's where the diversity of your workforce and the people that are putting your strategies together, that's where that golden sort of result comes from. It's like, it's not just a bunch of finance people sitting in a room. It's people with all these different experiences that go, hey, let's tackle it from this way and this way and this way. Oh, yeah, that's cool. We're all. Well, yeah.

Diana Alt [00:10:17]:
I think one of the reasons why I was able to do some of the things I did in my career is because I feel like I was a floater. Because I always. I. I often tell people, when they ask, you know, what was your career like? Or what do you do? I'm like, I was always sitting right in the middle of people and process and business and tech, you know, all that kind of stuff. So I played secret decoder ring. And I also have a talent for asking the uncomfortable questions. Not always with as much grace as I could have, but growth is a thing, right? So. But what.

Diana Alt [00:10:55]:
What's super interesting to me is when people talk about this and they boil it down too. I wanted to make the world a better place is how damn many ways there are to do that.

Lucy Norris [00:11:05]:
Totally.

Diana Alt [00:11:06]:
There's so many ways to do that. And some of Them are more concrete than others. So how did you land on food at work? Because most people think of it as it's just a convenience. You know, they're like. Some people resent it. Like a lot of people in tech especially that were in kind of that late 90s to like early mid 2000s, ended up resenting if there was food, food stuff at work, especially the free lunch, because they felt like they were held hostage by it. So how did you land on food systems, especially corporate food systems, as a path to well being in the way that you were interested?

Lucy Norris [00:11:56]:
Yeah, I mean it really started with well being. I didn't call it well being at the time. I was really more thinking of. Because I got a master's degree of food studies from NYU and at that time in my 20s and 30s. So I also went back a little later to finish my degree. I was first drawn to food really more for culinary and cultural identity and that sort of thing. And it was around 911 because I was in New York. You know, my first day of grad school was 9 11.

Diana Alt [00:12:37]:
Oh my God.

Lucy Norris [00:12:38]:
And I was just starting out and it totally changed my trajectory in terms of what I really thought was important. Why, why am I getting a food degree now when there's so many other things that I could do to help connect people or help have more sustainable, you know, future or good health outcomes or whatever it is. And I started thinking about, through the root cause of why people become desperate, why people become, you know, sick, why people create differences or, or amplify differences that people have between one another. What is it that I can do with this degree that can, you know, help me achieve? Some of the things that I want to do is like bring harmony to the world. Like, okay, yeah, that's real great, Kambaya, but like how am I going to make money and also do these things?

Diana Alt [00:13:40]:
So it's so interesting because a lot of people when they go after this kind of thing, they're hanging out. We were talking about Maslow before I hit record. They're hanging out in self actualization, like find your higher purpose. And you're like, how about we just like not have to worry about eating or not have to worry about being in a food desert. Because if someone lives in a food desert, but then they work at a facility where you're managing a food program, you can make that better for them, right? Yeah, interesting.

Lucy Norris [00:14:12]:
But food systems is not, you know, food service is a part of food systems. And so when I think of my career, I usually characterize it as food food systems rather than me being an expert food operator or you know, I understand it now primarily in tech but I mean I've worked with farmers for the first 15 years of my career on the supply side and understanding especially the challenges of small and mid scale farmers to bring their products to market. Work on branding. Also worked with companies like Kraft and General Mills on sustainable branding and communications as a consultant, you know, with the Hartman Group. I did that for three and a half years and that was a really interesting time where you know, companies were saying oh, we have to get down to five ingredients and we have to clean up our act and we have to be organic and sustainable because that's what customers want. And then they, you know, fell over each other trying to put whole grain chips ahoy in the market and you know, totally miss the, you know, jump the shark. Right. You're like, no, your customers really don't

Diana Alt [00:15:29]:
care about organic chips, don't need a whole grain chips.

Lucy Norris [00:15:33]:
And working in food access and bridging the gap between local supply chains and the communities that are, you know, have the most, you know, health disparities and most of that is food access and transportation and all these other things.

Diana Alt [00:15:49]:
It's so interesting because I have you. I'd never worked with anybody that had built their career in large part in food systems until I worked with you. And I've had another client since then that has worked in that space too.

Lucy Norris [00:16:03]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:16:03]:
And it's wild. And I, I was a farm kid. Like my dad talks. You know, my parents were both raised on farms. Like my mom picked cotton in the Texas heat when she was a tiny child.

Lucy Norris [00:16:17]:
Tough.

Diana Alt [00:16:18]:
My dad worked on his parents farm when he was a tiny child and they both ended up teaching school too, which I don't know what are two more. The only more identity based profession I can think of is pastor. Like a religious leader. No matter what your religion is. So it's wild.

Lucy Norris [00:16:38]:
Yeah. And that's my ancestry. Those locations are pretty much what my ancestry is after teacher pastors, teachers, farmers, clergy.

Diana Alt [00:16:51]:
One of the interesting things about like I live in the suburbs of Kansas City.

Lucy Norris [00:16:59]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:16:59]:
And there's been a lot of. And I'm, I'm sure other mentors have had this too. But over the years the topic of food deserts has come in and out of the news and I think in terms of friction a lot. So how do you think about your work at Amazon and friction for people having healthy food? Because like there's a big, you do a lot of stuff that we can't discuss without getting Amazon legal involved. But you have a big scale. Your, your job is big.

Lucy Norris [00:17:33]:
It's a very big scale.

Diana Alt [00:17:34]:
But, but for me, when I have a big thing, taking it down to the individuals or at least an individual site that I work with helps me see what it is. So what are some of the. What is like something unique people might not understand about friction, that jobs like what you do and you also did it for other companies getting healthy food. What do we not know that we just take for granted when we go buy our chicken salad for 11.95. Oh, wow. Cafe.

Lucy Norris [00:18:04]:
Yeah. I mean, what's the economies of scale? Of course, if you're a small grower and you have 20 acres in the Pacific Northwest and you're trying to sell your product not only to the farmers markets, which is a smaller market share, and then you have CSAs or you sell maybe to one or two grocery stores or whatever. Cost of land is really high.

Diana Alt [00:18:30]:
Yeah.

Lucy Norris [00:18:31]:
And you still gotta fix your trucks and you still have to, you know, pay insurance and, you know, you may get certifications, you know, going from conventional to organic that cost a lot of money to, you know, invest in. It's a three year investment for farmers that are trying to transition if they have animals and then veterinary expenses. You know, there's a lot of things that go into farming and if you're a smaller farmer, you're bearing the weight of the cost of that to get that product to market. And so there's tons of friction. Of course, with automation and data, more farmers are moving towards those to help with efficiency and, you know, cost containment. Excuse me. If you're at a large scale, which is a lot of the farms that, you know, have just these massive conglomerates.

Diana Alt [00:19:24]:
Thanks, Cargill. Hello. Yeah.

Lucy Norris [00:19:26]:
They own the seeds, they own everything.

Diana Alt [00:19:28]:
They own it all.

Lucy Norris [00:19:29]:
And the things that you can put on the plants to, you know, between the seed and roundup and you got the whole ownership there, they, you know, it's less expensive. They can, you can sell your, the, the yields of those products for cheaper. So, you know, as our prices are going up and you know, the smaller farmers are sort of getting pushed out, but we need them because we need all scales of farm. You know, if we're going to the

Diana Alt [00:19:58]:
thing that is so interesting to me, we could talk farming all day. Yeah. But what's really interesting to me that people don't understand is that the most expensive tomato is the one that you grew at your house.

Lucy Norris [00:20:15]:
Takes the longest too.

Diana Alt [00:20:16]:
It takes the longest. It's the Most expensive because you have to not just buy tomato seeds and potting soil, but it takes. And that's not even counting time. It's still more expensive and the right

Lucy Norris [00:20:27]:
soil and the right sunshine, like, food is hard.

Diana Alt [00:20:30]:
And everyone wants, like a whole lot of people want there to not be corporate farms. But we also don't want every tomato to cost what it costs me to grow a tomato on my porch.

Lucy Norris [00:20:41]:
My thing is, I, I don't, I think again, it's a false choice. We need all farms.

Diana Alt [00:20:45]:
Yeah, I agree.

Lucy Norris [00:20:46]:
We need rooftop gardens. We need all of it.

Diana Alt [00:20:49]:
Right. Yeah.

Lucy Norris [00:20:51]:
And I can go off on my tangent around geopolitical, you know, issues like, oh, this war, and this war, okay, where's food supply coming from? And are we now cutting ourselves off from that food supply, making decisions? Okay. The friction that I see, just going back to your original question is, you know, when a lot of companies are asking their employees to come back to work. And so, you know, you don't have as much control over your food unless you're preparing your meals at home and you're bringing your food to work and you're, you know, really deliberately investing that time into planning and bring your meals because there's always going to be microwaves at these offices or kitchenettes, most of them. But you know, when you have companies that have invested in food programs, whether or not that's a free food program or a subsidized food program, you, you have limited amount of time to eat. Not every place, you know, has area restaurants or anything like that that you're trying to get people out of the building just because it's a good way to take a break, get some sunshine or you know, get out in the weather with your friends and go eat. Some people just don't have that much time, you know, so, yeah, you know, and it's like a money town.

Diana Alt [00:22:14]:
When you, when you live in a food desert and then you go to work somewhere that maybe is out in the burbs, but you only have a 30 minute lunch and there's nothing around it. Like that's a whole lot of things that are stacking up. Where if you have a cafeteria, a kiosk or something available to the people, you've completely changed their nutrition for their work days. Right.

Lucy Norris [00:22:40]:
I mean, all the conditions, like how. The big question, how am I going to get lunch today? And you, and you place somebody who's got a pretty, you know, decent paying job with access and transportation and financial, you know, capital to be able to do whatever you need to do doordash or whatever it is. And then you have somebody who's got a very limited budget, doesn't have the transportation flexibility, may not have all the knowledge about what apps are available to be able to order lunch. And even if you did, are you going to pay all the fees and you might have a diet related disease or some dietary restriction. Yeah. That happens on both sides, right?

Diana Alt [00:23:25]:
Yeah.

Lucy Norris [00:23:26]:
So, you know, just comparing the extremes because there's. It's pretty messy, right. There's people in the middle that I

Diana Alt [00:23:32]:
guess really messy

Lucy Norris [00:23:35]:
are insecure. That happens too, right?

Diana Alt [00:23:38]:
Yeah.

Lucy Norris [00:23:39]:
But I think for me, I like the challenge. I mean, I don't. I've been in and out of food service mainly on the strategy side of things. I've worked in a couple of restaurants, been fired from a couple of restaurants.

Diana Alt [00:23:56]:
Nice work.

Lucy Norris [00:23:59]:
Early in my, early in my job world, you know, primarily in my teens. But you know, I knew it was like. Yeah, but you know, corporate dining is a totally different thing.

Diana Alt [00:24:10]:
It does a totally different thing, you know,

Lucy Norris [00:24:15]:
about workplace.

Diana Alt [00:24:16]:
There's a couple of things that come up for me when I think about my experience, one of which is,

Lucy Norris [00:24:25]:
well,

Diana Alt [00:24:26]:
I did consulting early in my career and I did some contract work to different. Slightly different ball of wax. But I had some times when I was a consultant where it's like show up at this client office building.

Lucy Norris [00:24:38]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:24:39]:
And you don't even know what's there.

Lucy Norris [00:24:43]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:24:44]:
Like I flew to Chicago and you go to this building and you got a cab because you're sharing a rental car with three other consultants. But you got there earlier and you get there and realize there's no food in the building and nothing in walking distance.

Lucy Norris [00:24:59]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:24:59]:
And this is pre doordash like that

Lucy Norris [00:25:02]:
you can't think and you can't focus.

Diana Alt [00:25:04]:
Like, what am I? You feel weird. Like I'm like 25 years old and I'm like, do I say anything? What do I do? And then another situation that was much more positive as I went to work at a company in Kansas City called Cerner. This was back in 2002. They're now part of Oracle, but they had like the. A dingy kind of crappy cafeteria when I started there. But they quickly started a process, a project to build a really nice new cafeteria. It might have actually been being built when I started. And then a little while later when they opened it, it became the hub of the campus.

Diana Alt [00:25:39]:
There were seven buildings on that campus.

Lucy Norris [00:25:42]:
That's great.

Diana Alt [00:25:42]:
It was so nice because it's like no one batted an eye if you decided that you were going to go to the Starbucks that was in the thing and have your meeting there instead of in the crappy conference room and it just made a big difference. So.

Lucy Norris [00:25:55]:
Yeah. And too when I'm hearing you say that, I come back to what are the threads of, of my career journey. And you know, because I've, I've, I've gotten out of food systems a few times.

Diana Alt [00:26:11]:
Yeah.

Lucy Norris [00:26:12]:
You know, and I've come back.

Diana Alt [00:26:14]:
Yeah, I remember talking about that. Yeah, I'm about to segue into your search. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lucy Norris [00:26:22]:
But ultimately, I mean, food, the things that I care about food also is very connected to which is financial well being, physical well being, mental and emotional well being and social well being.

Diana Alt [00:26:36]:
Yeah.

Lucy Norris [00:26:37]:
And everybody, if you are human, you, you have to manage that. You have to figure out what that is for yourself. And if your employer is helping you with that or your family or your community and you're finding ways to, to get through your life with those areas of your life feeling you feel good, you feel like you, you're in control of those things and you have access to those things that make you feel good about your state, you know, then okay, but sometimes your employer can get in the way of that. And you know, oh, but there are certain things an employer can't do because you have this broad workforce that you're trying, you know. So you know, we come up with this and I'm saying like other, you know, environments just in, it could be merchandising, it could be tech food, it could whatever. Can you have gluten free food? Technically in a, in a corporate dining setting, that's a little tougher because not every kitchen can have be gluten free. You know, you may be able to say I've got, you can't serve celiacs here unless you literally have a gluten free kitchen. And most companies, and also most food manufacturers do not.

Diana Alt [00:27:56]:
Unless that don't do. You know, it's really interesting. I have a family member that found out a few years ago they were gluten allergic. And like it's not pretty if they eat, it ain't.

Lucy Norris [00:28:09]:
And so there's no way that a, unless that is all you do. A food manufacturer or a company that's offering food service, it is extremely difficult to impossible to be able to say we are serving gluten free. That's safe enough for people like Celiax and you know, it's. But having that awareness and having that experience working with food access organizations and hospitals and you know, like I have in the past and helping hospitals improve their food, you know, offerings both with patients and staff. This is, it's just something to, to be aware of. You know, it's like pick, pick your lane. What can you do within the operational realities that you have, the budget that you have and then the opportunities to get really creative and work with more local producers, or set aside 10% of your budget for this and see, okay,

Diana Alt [00:29:07]:
what are your goals?

Lucy Norris [00:29:07]:
Sustainability, cost savings, employee health or patient health. Okay, what is it? These are our drivers. This is how we're going to do it. We're going to do it with food service, we're going to do it with matching funds or whatever it is. But having that well rounded experience I think has helped me in all of these areas because I can apply the learnings that I had when I.

Diana Alt [00:29:30]:
You're really good at levers.

Lucy Norris [00:29:31]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:29:32]:
Like you, like. So when I think of you, I think of a person who's a builder that knows how to pull levers and that you understand everything is messy.

Lucy Norris [00:29:45]:
Yeah, I don't like pulling levers. I, I get gleeful. I like to see like, like, oh,

Diana Alt [00:29:52]:
here's all the lovers. Yeah, let's go making bets on levers, which is very interesting. So I want to switch to the. Your job search because you had an extended one. And part of the reason I wanted you to come on the show is because you had something like an eight or nine month job search. We met like a little over halfway through that duration when you were maybe not feeling the best. Because it's a long, like, that's a long time to be out of work when you're worried.

Lucy Norris [00:30:20]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:30:21]:
And you, you started pulling different levers. Like when you and I met, which was January of 2025.

Lucy Norris [00:30:27]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:30:28]:
Talk to people about like kind of what that eight month search was like and how you ended up changing the levers that you pulled so that you could land somewhere you were happy.

Lucy Norris [00:30:41]:
Yeah, I mean, this was Covid. Changed a lot of my thinking about what was really important to me. Moving into a new phase of career. I landed back in food service after being in the nonprofit world and then Covid, you know, shifted everything and you know, of course food service was like, we're not, the cafes aren't open. What are we going to do? So the team that I had at Adobe was phenomenal and I leaned into being a great manager. I really wanted to make sure that my team understood their ability to create new ways of working, new ways of nourishing, new ways of communicating and Supporting using technology, using strategy to make sure we provided a bridge between the previous cafes being open and day to day at the office to, oh, everyone's at home trying to feed their families and nourish themselves during a time of stress and uncertainty to coming back to the office and not sure if we're coming in two days, five days, whatever. And how do we do that best? Talking to Maslow's hierarchy and all of that. And then.

Lucy Norris [00:31:55]:
Okay. But I really. My role was keeping the train on the tracks for that extremely diverse team that I had who were all had their own realities. And so my role as a manager became paramount. It was like, yeah, I could really screw this up not only for the program and this company experience, but I could also screw it up for these individuals that will have a ripple effect, you know, to their families and their careers. So, like, oh, that's my main job here. There's a.

Diana Alt [00:32:27]:
There's a guy I know here in Kansas City who. I've heard him say, the first rule of leadership is loving people.

Lucy Norris [00:32:36]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:32:37]:
Which makes a lot of people go, what? Because, you know, we have. There's a lot of people that still walk around trying to utter with a straight face the sentence, it's nothing personal. It's just business, and business is personal. So that sentence doesn't make sense.

Lucy Norris [00:32:56]:
No.

Diana Alt [00:32:57]:
I thought that was really interesting because there's so many areas of the experience of being a human that works.

Lucy Norris [00:33:06]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:33:06]:
That are made worse versus better or worse based on whether your leader actually gives a shit about people.

Lucy Norris [00:33:14]:
Right. Yeah. So when I got. Yeah. So when I got laid off after five years, I was so invested in my team. I. I took some time to just kind of get myself, like, oriented to what next.

Diana Alt [00:33:30]:
Yeah.

Lucy Norris [00:33:31]:
I was also at the point where I was doing Pilates. I found a good studio, I'd start. You know, I had some, you know, pretty minor things. I'd stopped running because I had a foot thing, and I was, like, kind of figuring out what I was going to do for just regular health. I walked my dog all the time, but so I kind of felt like I had a good health thing, a routine that I could just glom onto, you know, during this transition. So I really leaned into that. But the other piece of it was I did go through a period before I met you where I was just throwing spaghetti against the wall and about

Diana Alt [00:34:13]:
what that looked like. Like, what kind of role were you seeking? What kind of strategies were you using? At that time, the only strategy that

Lucy Norris [00:34:21]:
I had was over listening to the voices in my head telling me I had to get back to work and that I just, I could do that, I could do that. And scouring LinkedIn, going to all these, you know, and it was not concentrated. I was applying to foundations, I was applying to tech companies, I was applying to food, non food, HR roles. I was, you know, oh, director, I've done that. I can do that again. You know, and it was just so, it was because my previous job and I hadn't been on the market for a while and things had changed a bunch around like AI and you know, it just like, I don't understand this. I'm just going to do what I know and just go. And then after a while I, I just felt like this is going nowhere.

Diana Alt [00:35:13]:
Were you networking at all during that or were you mostly just seeking opportunities to apply for?

Lucy Norris [00:35:18]:
I mean, this is probably my first two months. Okay. So I was, I think the two things I was concentrated most on was reaching quotas that I had imagined for myself as far as, like, how many job applicant applications can I do this week? You know, I need to sit down and dedicate five hours to the, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't grounded in data, believe me. It wasn't a data driven strategy. It was more to like, quiet the voices in my head.

Diana Alt [00:35:53]:
Yeah, that is not a fun place to be. I've been there.

Lucy Norris [00:35:57]:
But I wasn't forfeited. The good thing about this is I wasn't panicking this time around. I had developed a little bit more of a savings cushion to prevent me from completely spinning out because I had not, you know, previously, you know, when I had student loans and oh my gosh, and credit. Oh my gosh, I can't afford to be, I can't do this. I have to go back to work and I may not be able to make the right decision. For me. That was the voice in my head. This time around it was different in that I thought, okay, well, I've got a few months to be able to get more prepared.

Lucy Norris [00:36:33]:
So at some point I had reached out, I did a little networking, but it was more like 90% applications, spaghetti against the wall and 10% networking. And one of my networking conversations was like, hey, I've got a coach. Do you want to talk with them? And I'm like, I don't know if I can afford a coach. I have time for this, you know? And then her coach, I met with them once or twice and I thought, well, it's not really the right fit here, but I like this idea. And then I talked to someone else who then introduced me to a peer of yours in the job seekers.

Diana Alt [00:37:17]:
It was the Job Seeker Summit.

Lucy Norris [00:37:19]:
Job Seeker Summit. And they invited me to the Job Seekers Seeker Summit virtual gathering that was. That changed everything.

Diana Alt [00:37:29]:
Yeah. And I'm gonna stop for a second. People are like, what is that?

Lucy Norris [00:37:33]:
Yeah, cool.

Diana Alt [00:37:34]:
Okay.

Lucy Norris [00:37:35]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:37:35]:
Top secret Summit is host has been hosted the last few years by a fellow coach of mine named Angie Callan. Amazing brand is Career Benders and she pulls together a couple of dozen career experts. And however many people want to sign up for a live summit with Q and A calls and it's not like death by PowerPoint presentations. So anybody that she does it in January, anybody that hears about that and is interested, you know, all we're. It's May right now, so it's not going to be for a minute, but that kind of thing and stuff like it can be really useful. So if you get on my email list or connect with me on LinkedIn, I'll post about it the next time it happens. Yeah, but it was a, it was a cool thing because there were people for early career, late career, executive level, non executive, like all kinds of stuff.

Lucy Norris [00:38:27]:
And we could choose the sessions that

Diana Alt [00:38:29]:
we wanted to go to. Whatever you wanted to go, so you went. What was the most impactful to you from that summit?

Lucy Norris [00:38:36]:
I think I was really looking for as I'd already made up my mind that I wanted to invest in coaching and previous coaches slash therapists that I've had in the past. Not, I mean I've had good ones and I've had people that are like, you're just great and you don't need to do anything different. And I'm like, yeah, but what I'm doing isn't working. I need, I need somebody should just be a straight shoe doer with me. I need someone to help pick apart some things, help me really think through like where I should be investing my time and how I should articulate this and what is the, you know, give me information about what's new that I didn't know five years ago. You know, that wasn't around five years ago in my last job search because everything changes so quickly and also because I'm sort of coming with this patchwork quilt of a career and I need help being able to articulate my value. And, and then when I, I saw, I can't remember what session it was because you did a couple of sessions, but this one session you were in, I was like, oh. And I think you mentioned Stoicism And I'm like, that's the one.

Diana Alt [00:39:48]:
I promise I mentioned that.

Lucy Norris [00:39:51]:
I'm like, oh, I'm gonna follow up with her. So I did.

Diana Alt [00:39:56]:
And so I know, I love that. Like, yes, I have room. I, I always want anybody listening to this that feels like they need a coach to feel like they can reach out and learn more. But what I want people to understand, even more importantly, is that investing some time, energy and money into figuring out how to talk about yourself and think about your value in a job search is some of the very best money that you can spend in your career.

Lucy Norris [00:40:25]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:40:26]:
Cause that's like, that's a pretty good roi.

Lucy Norris [00:40:28]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:40:28]:
You know, if you think about, you're now a year, you hadn't had a job, you're now a year into a job, you actually like the job. And even if you didn't like the job, the fact that you worked at Amazon will draw other people in should you decide to move on. Like, those are all things that you got from the decision that I'm going to go have somebody help me figure out how to talk about myself.

Lucy Norris [00:40:49]:
Yeah. Yeah. Instead of, instead of changing it with every conversation that or every letter, which

Diana Alt [00:40:55]:
I was doing, I can do any. Anything is not. What do you want me to do?

Lucy Norris [00:40:59]:
And then trying to filter all the letter like, oh, here's my resume and here's the job description. Throw it into Claude. And then Claude is going to tell me how to do things. And I'm like, maybe. And then I throw as like, nothing, Pete. Nothing.

Diana Alt [00:41:14]:
Yeah. What are, what are a couple of the things, the things that you changed how you thought about in your search as a result of what you learned at the summit and, or working with me or following other smart, smart job search experts.

Lucy Norris [00:41:31]:
Yeah. I mean, a lot of it was just this. Well, the first thing which was probably the most impactful to the acceleration of job search to job was flipping the 90% application to 10% networking to 90% networking to 10% applications and being more.

Diana Alt [00:41:58]:
Again, louder.

Lucy Norris [00:42:01]:
That was huge.

Diana Alt [00:42:03]:
How hard was that shift for you?

Lucy Norris [00:42:05]:
I felt like I was like, I can't that, well, I'm wasting my time. I need to be on job boards, I need to be read. I need to be updating every resume to customize every resume to every job. And all these things that I'd heard tell me, you know, not, not people that knew just like, yeah, stuff that's out there, you know, and. But honestly, that's when I, I switched gears, like, and I just reached. I used LinkedIn to reach out to people. I reached out to colleagues asking if they had connection. Sorry, my hair.

Diana Alt [00:42:43]:
You did both. You look beautiful. You did both.

Lucy Norris [00:42:46]:
My bangs.

Diana Alt [00:42:47]:
Did you do both? Cold outreach and like, dormant ties, like prior colleagues.

Lucy Norris [00:42:52]:
Both. And the cool thing about it is that people responded there. Some people didn't. I mean, believe me, there were a lot of people that said there were just nothing, you know, because they didn't respond to me. But I. I had something at least once or twice a week.

Diana Alt [00:43:13]:
That's a big deal for a couple reasons. And it's easier when you're not actually working 40 hours a week to have that many, you know, to have a bunch of meetings. But there's something about when you finally start talking to people about the value that all you've been doing is writing over and over and over different ways in a Google Doc or a Word Doc or whatever, that when you actually talk to a human and they're like, oh, tell me more. Even if they're just being polite, it just does something to you.

Lucy Norris [00:43:45]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:43:46]:
Because when you're just messing around with the documents, messing around with applying online, it feels very impersonal and you start to feel like a commodity. That's what my clients tell me. And I've been laid off three times in my career, so I have felt that way too. And it's just kind of magic to be like, oh, this person might care about me as a human a little bit, enough to have coffee with him.

Lucy Norris [00:44:13]:
And honestly, I thought I did as many virtual as I did in person because people are busy and some people are not in the same town as you. So virtual is the only way. I certainly learned the power of listening more than me coming in strong with, this is what I need and this is what I want. It was like, what do you do? Tell me more about this. I was looking at your LinkedIn and I am, you know, curious how you got there and with their. And people love to talk about themselves. And I was like, okay, well, I'm here to just learn. And then they would often, if they were gracious conversationalists, would also ask me questions and then I would answer and.

Lucy Norris [00:44:55]:
And I would respect everyone's time and I appreciate the hour that you gave me. And you know, and oh, yeah, let me know how things are going or whatever. I may not. Oh, you know, and I still connect with some of these folks, but I found it more, you know, like, yeah, sure. I just understood that not everybody was going to make time for me, and that's okay, you know, There's a lot of.

Diana Alt [00:45:16]:
So when people are like. When people are like, why were they talking about stoicism earlier? Part of the reason is because there's so many things you don't control in your search, and you cannot control what other people do. So when you know, to me, the be all and end all principle and stoicism is stop spending all your time trying to control the uncontrollable. And the only thing you can control is how you think about things, literally. And you can control the actions that you take, but you can't control how they're going to be received. You can do your best to try to make sure they're received well, but when you can just get to the point where you either apply for the job, go for the interview, ask somebody for the coffee date, whatever, and then release to the universe what that response is going to be until the next time your calendar says, huh, Maybe I should check in with Lucy again. It's been a while. Let's see if she now has time to have lunch or coffee or be on the podcast.

Lucy Norris [00:46:21]:
Yeah, yeah.

Diana Alt [00:46:22]:
It, like, life just gets better.

Lucy Norris [00:46:24]:
It does. And. And honestly, I learned. I learned a lot. I learned about jobs that I didn't even know existed, and I knew about people, you know, and also that whole, like, we're all in the same boat. I don't know anybody who's never failed. Like, everybody that I talked to, no matter how high up they were, had

Diana Alt [00:46:43]:
moments of you, if you hadn't failed.

Lucy Norris [00:46:46]:
And all that was like, I get it. And that's the reason why they responded to me, because they've been there. And I was like, okay, you. You are good now, and you got through something, and let's just. I really appreciate that feeling of being seen, you know?

Diana Alt [00:47:01]:
Yeah. So one of the things that I found really interesting, and I've said this to people, people love to say, job search is a numbers game. Well, you have to apply to all the things, because job search is the numbers game. There is a number that you have to worry about.

Lucy Norris [00:47:19]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:47:20]:
That is how many jobs your state says that you have to apply for in order to get unemployment. Like, you pay attention to that number so you don't lose. What was your feeling like? How did your mindset shift? I mean, it's a numbers game over your search.

Lucy Norris [00:47:39]:
Well, first of all, I felt relief because I felt so much anxiety about not having a plan that it was making. It was making me feel feel like I wasn't able to show up as myself. And I know that If I show up as myself, opportunities happen. If I just show up and, ah, yeah, does I need to get over there? And something's got to help me get there. You know, people go, ah, vibes are a thing.

Diana Alt [00:48:16]:
You know, vibes are a thing. And you can bring or energy, whatever you want to call it. Like, people can tell when something's off.

Lucy Norris [00:48:25]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:48:26]:
And there could be a very good reason something's off. Like, I am freaked out about paying my rent. But the more you can figure out how to be centered, the better. You put a pretty narrow target. By the time. So when you and I were working together, one of the things that you did was set yourself into a much more narrow target because you described. Before we started working together, I applied for nonprofit and this and HR and whatever. How.

Diana Alt [00:48:55]:
What finally led you to be okay with. I'm going to define what I actually want because that's such a sticking point for so many people. They struggle so hard with that. What was that process like for you?

Lucy Norris [00:49:10]:
Yeah, well, There were a few opportunities that. I mean, interviews, when I call opportunities, like, I can either make this or break this, or somebody's already gotten the job and they're giving me an interview as a courtesy. I also knew that that was going to happen, which is the stoicism and needed to, like, come and play. Like, it's okay. I'm not. I'm out of control here. This is. But I'm control of me, and I'm gonna show up and this is what I'm gonna do.

Lucy Norris [00:49:37]:
In this time, there were jobs that they could have worked, I could have done them, and people were giving me the opportunity to interview for them. But I just. There was just this feeling. It's like, this is not my job. And I don't. It wasn't the impact, it wasn't the people. It wasn't the, I don't know, visibility, the ownership opportunity that I was really, really craving at that time. And I finally got square with myself about needing to have ownership.

Lucy Norris [00:50:16]:
And it's a big deal. It's a value. I'm. I'm good as the owner of something. I need to own the. The impact. I need the strategy and work with a great team who also believes in this vision.

Diana Alt [00:50:34]:
Right.

Lucy Norris [00:50:34]:
And that's when I get my skates on and just accelerate. There weren't. I wasn't getting some of those, but there were opportunities. I just felt, this is a practice. These are practice opportunities. How am I talking about myself and also this potential, you know, am I the person that's going to help solve your problems. I'm not sure it gave me more confidence with each conversation that I had listening to myself respond to questions. But yeah, I mean, at that point I think I was still thinking that I would not go back to food.

Lucy Norris [00:51:12]:
Even though, you know, I'd been in the food industry and food systems, not necessarily food service, since I got out of college.

Diana Alt [00:51:21]:
You know. You know, there's a. There's a couple interesting things that I remember in this. One of them was you did not want food.

Lucy Norris [00:51:30]:
I know.

Diana Alt [00:51:31]:
Sorry. Amazon, if you're listening, there was a period where she didn't want food. I know, but what was so interesting

Lucy Norris [00:51:40]:
to me, but I had a realization later so I told you.

Diana Alt [00:51:43]:
You figured out. Well, you've probably figured out even more because we haven't talked that much lately, but you figured out that the ownership, like I get to build something, I get to direct this thing, I get to be like the head gal in charge was more important to you than the exact specific program that you were running.

Lucy Norris [00:52:04]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:52:04]:
And I think that is so important for people because yes, there's a lot of noise around the industry or the domain that people work in. And many people that I work with are in fields like program and product management, especially on the tech side, which is a little different than the type of program manager. It's a lot different than the type of program manager you are. Let's be real. But so many of them, like their skill is synthesis or their skill is understanding how to meet a market need and it can be done in many different industries or domains. And so not letting yourself get put off too much by a shiny object of I don't want to do food and instead acknowledge this is the real piece of the work that's important made a big difference. And I run across that with people all the time. Product management in particular has been very hard hit in the last two years in part because companies over hired in product into roles that were called product management but weren't really what is was traditionally thought of as product management.

Diana Alt [00:53:11]:
And now that there's less roles, some of those people are struggling. Yeah, but when people realize, okay, well maybe I didn't quite get there or, or I can't find a product job fast enough when they can go and look at what they really love and recognize that customer experience or product marketing or there's a bunch of different other consulting, there's a bunch of different things that they can do that scratches the same edge, that's how you build an adaptable career.

Lucy Norris [00:53:39]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:53:39]:
So when people say it's a numbers game, like when they're justifying the 50 applications they put in last week to all kinds of stuff, I tell them, look, the very. One of the very happiest people I've worked with in the last three years. Yeah. She played the numbers game all right. But she made the number be small.

Lucy Norris [00:54:00]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:54:00]:
She didn't make it be bigger. She made it small. That would be you.

Lucy Norris [00:54:04]:
Yeah. I mean, it went. I know. I have my spreadsheet started to, you know, track all. Where am I going with this? And it slowed down with my.

Diana Alt [00:54:15]:
Did you write down your networking contacts

Lucy Norris [00:54:18]:
so you felt like you were doing my. My networking. Spreading of tab was like growing and my applicants were like, you know, well done. It was great. No, and it. And honestly, it made it more enjoyable because that social. Well being during my job search was something that I knew was important, but sitting in front of a computer, just throwing my application out without any other rhyme or reason other than, I think I can do this.

Diana Alt [00:54:51]:
Yeah.

Lucy Norris [00:54:51]:
You know, and that was really draining. And my energy and depleting my confidence where, like, on any good day, if you want to have a conversation about me, you know, with me, about my career and what I care about, I will tell you. But if I'm in a place of deficit where I don't feel great about my prospects or I don't feel connected, you're not going to get the same person. You know, having a real.

Diana Alt [00:55:16]:
That's a real thing. And I like entrepreneurship. I. I will cycle through that a couple times in a week. Sometimes.

Lucy Norris [00:55:25]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:55:25]:
In a day. And sometimes I just have to remember, like, you feel like crap right now, but, like, you felt good Monday. Yeah.

Lucy Norris [00:55:33]:
I just knew that if I stayed in that feeling of that social deficit,

Diana Alt [00:55:38]:
even though it'll work. There's something really important in that.

Lucy Norris [00:55:42]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:55:43]:
For people to think about. And whether you fill the social deficit through, you know, 10x in your networking for. With a purpose for your job search, or whether you fill the social deficit by joining a book club club or joining something else or going back to your, you know, house of worship or whatever.

Lucy Norris [00:56:05]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:56:06]:
People have a tendency when they're laid off to attach shame to that.

Lucy Norris [00:56:10]:
Oh, yeah.

Diana Alt [00:56:11]:
I know. They won't talk to anybody. Like, how many people have screwed up their marriage by now? We don't have money, so everybody's stressed. And you won't talk to your spouse about what's going on. It happens all the time.

Lucy Norris [00:56:24]:
That. That is. So I don't know if that's an American thing. I see that a lot with my male, my partner.

Diana Alt [00:56:33]:
And I've seen it with women too.

Lucy Norris [00:56:35]:
I see it with more and more women. Certainly I've been in that position as well. But, you know, because it's like, you're out of work, what's wrong with you? You know, or you got laid off, what did you do? You know. But nowadays everybody gets laid off.

Diana Alt [00:56:48]:
Stop asking reason.

Lucy Norris [00:56:50]:
It doesn't matter if you were a high performer or not. You're just not caught in it, you know. Yeah, I've also had to deal with that too because, you know, I have been laid off before. You know, my last job was a. We don't. That's a duplicate. We don't need you. And this person has more operational experience.

Lucy Norris [00:57:07]:
Oh, great. Okay, well, I'm more strategy. So I'm a money spender then, you know, in that job. But I also learned a lot, right. So I carry all that stuff with me. And I got, oh, big picture now. I see. This is the thing.

Lucy Norris [00:57:21]:
Don't disagree honestly with that decision. It was just hurt. It's always hurtful when you're on the side where you're not the one making the decision.

Diana Alt [00:57:29]:
It is. And you're like, you know, sometimes people do feel like, oh, well, we can, we can release someone that's a pain in the ass whenever they're doing a laugh. It doesn't matter.

Lucy Norris [00:57:42]:
It doesn't matter.

Diana Alt [00:57:43]:
Just because, like, that's not for you anymore is the thing that I wish more people would embrace. So there's a thing that I want to hit and I'll cut this out if you don't like it, but I want to ask this question. So the whole. When we were, when you were working on your job search, especially after we started working together, you really had some strong values alignment in mind that you wanted and you were not entirely sure whether Amazon was the right company. Values aligned at the time. I remember having a conversation about this with you and I think part of the conversation went something like, girl, it's a global multinational, like jillion dollar organization. We can't pretend we know everything about how values are expressed in every nook and cranny of the company. But that, you know, that's something people struggle with because sometimes the where they have the opportunity doesn't feel aligned for some reason.

Diana Alt [00:58:42]:
How did you work through that?

Lucy Norris [00:58:44]:
Yeah, I think for me it was exam once the opportunity arose. And I can say that I did not apply for the job that I actually got kids.

Diana Alt [00:59:00]:
This is a good Story I applied

Lucy Norris [00:59:03]:
for a different job, interviewed for that, and then was recycled to this. And this team was really interested in getting somebody with a mixed background. I wasn't just operations, I wasn't just strategy. I had both. And I had also done, you know, improved systems and processes, built systems and processes, improved organizational efficiency, made big decisions around staffing and, and cuts, but also trying to keep the wheels, you know, in terms of, I call it scaling up the special. You know, you keep the good stuff and, and try to sort of keep the integrity of the mission or the organization and you know, because things grow and change and there's things that you can slough off that's low hanging fruit we try to work through with a scalpel as to what that looks like. I, I have a lot of confidence around that at the large scale and small scale. But this was a completely different, you know, I was like, I don't know, this was huge.

Diana Alt [01:00:09]:
I mean one of the biggest. It's a huge country.

Lucy Norris [01:00:15]:
And so I, because I didn't apply for this and at that time I still wasn't 100 sure I wanted to return to food service and a tech company. I felt like, you know, I'm just gonna have them sell me on this idea and tell me all the things

Diana Alt [01:00:35]:
she applied for more of a wellness job I did that was global and then it ended up that they didn't even fill that right.

Lucy Norris [01:00:43]:
Yeah, they got rid of that.

Diana Alt [01:00:45]:
They got rid of that role. So whenever, like the little micro lesson in here is whenever we're tempted to get pissed because they put a role on hold that we interviewed for or eliminated it or whatever. The two mistakes I see people make are, number one, just getting pissed off that they did that you don't know. And number two, mistaking this is not going to happen. Whether the role got eliminated or you just didn't get picked, they ex. They people will look at that as that company is not for me. And I'm like, or they don't want me. That company is rejecting me.

Diana Alt [01:01:25]:
It's like that particular role for that particular day, that's not for you.

Lucy Norris [01:01:30]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:01:31]:
In your case it's because they got rid of the role. But sometimes, like I've had people that

Lucy Norris [01:01:34]:
I didn't know that they didn't tell me.

Diana Alt [01:01:36]:
You found that out later.

Lucy Norris [01:01:38]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:01:39]:
So continuing on or letting people know, hey, I'm sorry, this one didn't work out for me, but I'm interested in ACME Corporation. I'd love to stay in the loop. Is there any reason why I shouldn't pursue applying for other things. It's really good. Anyway, Rabbit trail. Sorry.

Lucy Norris [01:01:57]:
So, yeah, go ahead.

Diana Alt [01:01:59]:
On this other role, you looked at it as you're courting me now.

Lucy Norris [01:02:03]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:02:03]:
Kind of how you approached it. Not an way. Yeah, no, no.

Lucy Norris [01:02:07]:
I mean, I think I was just staying open to the conversation because immediately I was like, I've done this, just not at the scale. I think it takes a hard job and just makes that a lot bigger. But here comes the ownership opportunity and the potential impact on people's daily lives. And me also understanding the power of food to generate that sense of well being and thinking. Okay, well, if I have an opportunity to come in and I've. And they know that this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm telling them I would do if you gave me this job, this is where I would focus and that they said, yes, we want you to do that. Then the first day I hit the ground, I'm not saying, what do you need me to do? I already know what I need to do.

Diana Alt [01:03:07]:
I love that.

Lucy Norris [01:03:09]:
That shows there's a.

Diana Alt [01:03:10]:
There's a mistake people make.

Lucy Norris [01:03:12]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:03:13]:
A lot. Especially when they're job searching.

Lucy Norris [01:03:16]:
Well, they don't want to ask.

Diana Alt [01:03:18]:
They bring their weird representative to the interviews instead of bringing themselves and their opinion.

Lucy Norris [01:03:25]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [01:03:26]:
So they bring this weird representative whose goal is to make people like them.

Lucy Norris [01:03:30]:
Uhhuh.

Diana Alt [01:03:32]:
And they. Instead of the person that is a badass and is there to figure out, are we mutually aligned? And some people push back on me when I call that out because they're like, well, I've been out for a long time and I really need the money and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, cool. But when you bring the weird representative, the energy is off. You come across desperate. You don't perform as well. If you say, I'm very grateful for this. I've shifted my target.

Lucy Norris [01:04:04]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:04:04]:
Because I need the money. And you walk in with that energy to a job that might have been like a B grade opportunity and now feels like an A grade opportunity because things have changed. It's a whole different thing.

Lucy Norris [01:04:17]:
Right.

Diana Alt [01:04:17]:
So you can do that. You can change your mind for whatever reason about what you want to pursue.

Lucy Norris [01:04:23]:
Yeah. But yeah, honestly, I thought the quickest way that I can get laid off again is not be honest about what my value is.

Diana Alt [01:04:37]:
Yeah.

Lucy Norris [01:04:38]:
And. And also my shortcoming. I wasn't there to be like, oh, I'm so vulnerable that you're gonna know all of my shortcomings.

Diana Alt [01:04:46]:
Well, when I see people do that. What they end up doing is going like. And know it all.

Lucy Norris [01:04:51]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:04:52]:
Like that's one of the ways they show up. They also show up. No, I mean when they're off, when the energy is off, the weird representative. I know everything and that doesn't work very well.

Lucy Norris [01:05:02]:
No.

Diana Alt [01:05:03]:
So you, how did, like what did you learn through the process that made you go, oh yeah, like I can be values aligned with Amazon. I didn't feel like I was going to be before. But what happened to shift your opinion on the company? Like clearly, you know, the ownership part was a big deal for you.

Lucy Norris [01:05:23]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:05:25]:
Did you learn new information?

Lucy Norris [01:05:27]:
Yeah, yeah, I think they gave me enough information to under. I mean they didn't hand me the P L or anything like that. But I mean what they did, you know, because a non profit organization would give you, they would open up all the channels and let you peek under

Diana Alt [01:05:42]:
the hood before you, hey, come on,

Lucy Norris [01:05:46]:
you're making 90,000 to a hundred thousand a year. Great. You know, but if you are really trying, you know, Amazon's not going to, or any other big company is not going to let you look that far under the hood before you take a job unless you're at the high level. I think I knew enough about the goals that the, that the company wanted for this role to be. Like, am I the kind of person, you know, this is the same question that I asked when I bought this house. Am I the kind of person that wants to dedicate the next year on this massive yard without turf and all of the things that I need to do to make this yard acceptable for me, you know? Or do I need to put in the time to get my electrical done and am I the kind of person that's going to do that and hire somebody and work with them? Same thing with my job search. Am I the kind of person that wants to take on these things? Because this is going to be. The success of this role is dependent on me being able to do this.

Lucy Norris [01:06:45]:
And if I can't do it, I need to be surrounded by people that can offset the things that I can't do or don't feel confident in.

Diana Alt [01:06:52]:
That's such a good point. I'm so glad you brought that up.

Lucy Norris [01:06:55]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:06:55]:
Because are you going to be plugged into a team that can make it happen and ask questions that more, more than like is the team good? Which is what a lot. That's the end of what most people do.

Lucy Norris [01:07:08]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:07:09]:
They don't really do due diligence on it and it's super Interesting that you bring that up because there's a flip side. So before we hit record, we were talking about some of the reasons why people don't get picked for jobs. And we've talked about it a little on this episode too. But one of the things that is not recognized enough is, yeah, you could check every box on a job description and the job description could even be good. Most of them are terrible, but it could even be good and actually reflect the job. But if you don't know where the team is, the people on the team are spiky. Because you want a well rounded team. But most well rounded teams are composed of spiky people.

Diana Alt [01:07:53]:
And you have, you know, hey, if, if strategy was all you had and operations was all they needed, you're not going to get that even though you're amazing.

Lucy Norris [01:08:03]:
Right.

Diana Alt [01:08:03]:
Oh, or.

Lucy Norris [01:08:05]:
And not every job as well. I don't know of any job description that actually spells out. You have all the responsive, you have all the accountability and no responsibility possibility. Right?

Diana Alt [01:08:14]:
Like or. No authority.

Lucy Norris [01:08:16]:
Or no authority. That's it. Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:08:20]:
Zero molecules.

Lucy Norris [01:08:22]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [01:08:22]:
Yeah. That is great.

Lucy Norris [01:08:23]:
But I do. Yeah. So that I, I think too. This is going back to. This is that I got some really good advice from a previous mentor slash boss of mine in the nonprofit sector. He was a great guy, David Bauermeister. He's fantastic.

Diana Alt [01:08:38]:
He.

Lucy Norris [01:08:38]:
I was going after my first nonprofit executive director job and I, I was really confident about a couple of key skills. Like, I'm really good researcher, I'm really good at communications and marketing. I'm really good with organizational development and, and you know, I can do budgets. I can, you know, pretty. But you know, this, this was some, you know, I was one of those kids that like, drew pictures in math class. Right. And I carry this thing that I'm, I'm still working on.

Diana Alt [01:09:05]:
I drew numbers in art class, so we're even.

Lucy Norris [01:09:08]:
You know, I can write haikus, you know, at the drop of a hat, but you know, algorithms that they're like, O my God, you know, that's. Anyway, long story short, he said, do you, you don't have to have every skill on the, the resume as long as you're, you can see yourself doing the things that you're really good at and doing those well and making the impact that you feel good about. And you have the people that have the complementary skill sets that you don't have around you because you would. Then you're the executive director. You can put this thing together however you want to within the budget that you have. So Build that. And then I was like, eureka.

Diana Alt [01:09:53]:
It's a big, like. Oh. And you know, a lot of people, if you're walking into an individual contributor role, yes, you don't have as much latitude, but when you're in an. When you have enough, you don't need to. I would say almost nobody needs to have every skill. As a 10 out of 10, you might have a 6 out of 10 incompetency in a skill, but if you can walk into a team where someone else is spiky in that skill, it might be fine. So I think that's a really good point.

Lucy Norris [01:10:20]:
And actually asking the question of, like, what do you really need this person to, like, focus on? Because sometimes it's. We need to do repair work. All of our stakeholders and our partners have zero trust in us. Are you the kind of person that can build relationships? Yep. That has nothing to do with maintaining a budget.

Diana Alt [01:10:42]:
Right.

Lucy Norris [01:10:42]:
Maybe you're great at dealing with spreadsheets all day, but if you can't talk to people and that's what they really need, then amplify that, find out. You know, I think that's good.

Diana Alt [01:10:53]:
And thank you so much. Like, we could do this for another hour. Like, plus, you're just. You're just a cool human. There's so much wisdom that's baked into what you talked about.

Lucy Norris [01:11:06]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:11:06]:
That I hope people are able to take something away from before I close.

Lucy Norris [01:11:11]:
Right. Lifelong learner. This is just this. This is a moment. Right.

Diana Alt [01:11:17]:
I started a podcast so I could learn from people. When you put a mic in front of them, they'll tell you anything. So before I close, I want to ask one question, and that is, I asked this to everybody. What is the worst piece of career advice you've ever received?

Lucy Norris [01:11:35]:
Oh, I think the original worst advice that actually goes back to college is choose a major,

Diana Alt [01:11:48]:
pick a lane, and stay there till you die is kind

Lucy Norris [01:11:51]:
of the bad advice.

Diana Alt [01:11:53]:
Yeah.

Lucy Norris [01:11:53]:
And then. And then sticking with one thing and not allowing yourself to branch out and take risk with your career. Because, honestly, that. I look back on my career, I didn't. I mean, obviously I was interested in a lot of things. Food systems is huge. Health care is huge. Like, these are all giants with a lot of problems to solve that need people.

Diana Alt [01:12:16]:
Yeah.

Lucy Norris [01:12:17]:
And do you think. Because these are very human endeavors. Right. Our bodies, our relationships, you know, but yeah, I think, you know, when that was that sort of early advice, you know, as a Gen Xer, when someone says, you know, you need to pick a major, you know, pick your lane, you know. And then I see people now who have just done that and have not done anything else and how limiting that is nowadays where how you creating your unique value proposition with those nuances, those eccentricities, the stories that you can to connect those dots. I mean, I'm not saying you can't because people obviously can just do one thing forever, but I think it gives you more. For me.

Diana Alt [01:13:09]:
Yeah. It doesn't stand on its own the way it did for our parents. If our parents worked the same way for place for 30 years and ended up with a gold watch.

Lucy Norris [01:13:18]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:13:18]:
Just that felt like a story to people. I worked my way from the mail room to the vice president of operations or what. However, that. That now it's more likely to be viewed as a liability.

Lucy Norris [01:13:30]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:13:30]:
If you don't have a good story. Thank you so much for coming on workshop. I love it. It's always fun to talk to you. I hope everybody has a great day and we'll see you next time. All right.