Diana Alt [00:00:04]:
Hey, Diana Auld here. And this is Work Should Feel Good, the podcast where your career growth meets your real life. Each week I share stories, strategies, and mindset shifts to help you build a work life that works for you on your terms. Hello, hello, hello. Good. Good day, everyone. Welcome to Work Should Feel Good, the show where your career growth meets your real life. I'm your host, Diana Alt, and today my guest Tamara Koppel and I are going to talk about how you can fuel your career or business or whatever the heck else you're trying to build with intentional relationships.

Diana Alt [00:00:48]:
Tamara is a keynote speaker, community organizer, and product manager who's worked across multiple industries in the Kansas City area. She mentors tech professionals these days in mastering their craft and mastering their relationship, whatever those may be. She and her husband Matt, who was on. On the podcast, episode 14, I think they're a partner in a data consultancy as well. So she's got a lot going on. She does not know how to sit still. Welcome to the show, Tamara, or Tam, as you have. I like how you have in your little streamyard name Tam, parentheses, a raw thing.

Diana Alt [00:01:32]:
I've called you Tamara ever since I've known you. What's the deal?

Tamara Copple [00:01:35]:
This. This was a mat thing that started in college when I was. My name has always been Tamara.

Diana Alt [00:01:44]:
Yeah.

Tamara Copple [00:01:45]:
And he. He shortens everyone's name as long as they let him. And he was. He just named me Tam, and it kind of stuck. All of my professors called me Tamara. Usually they mispronounced it because everyone knows somebody with my name, Mara. And it's. It's Tamara.

Tamara Copple [00:02:04]:
It's Tamara. It's Tamara with three syllables. It's Tamra with two syllables. If you're. If you speak Spanish, there might be a rule.

Diana Alt [00:02:13]:
Is it intended to be Tamra? Two syllables.

Tamara Copple [00:02:17]:
It is intended to be Tamara. Three syllables.

Diana Alt [00:02:20]:
Okay.

Tamara Copple [00:02:20]:
Tamara Rose.

Diana Alt [00:02:21]:
I've never said that. Right. In my whole life that I've known you. So sorry about that.

Tamara Copple [00:02:27]:
I get 99.9 of. I call myself Tamara. So, you know, there you go. Well, then, like that silent middle syllable, Tamra. But that's why it makes it so easy.

Diana Alt [00:02:42]:
My name is possible. Diana gets Deanne, Diane, Dana, Dina, Donna, everything else in between. And like, I. I've worked with. I worked with a woman once that was named Diane, and she was a bully to everybody that we worked with. So at this point, oh, boy, don't call me Diane. Like, that's the one. That scrap just drives me the most crazy.

Diana Alt [00:03:09]:
But most of the time, I want either Diana or Dee. I Sign a lot of my emails with a lowercase D. I've done that ever since I had an email in 1994. So that's kind of my thing. You, you, you are your speaker and you're talking intentional relationships. And you and I got to know each other because of an intentional relationship that you and I both built with Sharon Weaver many years ago.

Tamara Copple [00:03:43]:
Yay, Sharon. Sharon is another one of those amazing connectors.

Diana Alt [00:03:47]:
Oh, gosh, she's. She is that way. So she needs to. I need to have her on the show too. She's gonna be on here at some point. But you've been huge on communities and intentional relationships, like ever since I've known you. That is how I got to know you. What made that be your thing? How did you.

Diana Alt [00:04:08]:
I mean, I think so many people talk about networking and building relationships and blah, blah, blah, yak, yak, yak, but most people don't talk about the origin of how they discovered that that was going to be an important thing. When did that come up for you?

Tamara Copple [00:04:29]:
I can't quite name the specific day, but I know exactly when it was. I was in a dead end job at, at a financial services company and I was in my mid-40s and going to work. And Matt and I at that time worked at the same place. And well, at least we both worked downtown at that time. And as we were, and as we were, as we were headed to work one morning, KCUR did a note. We only ever listened to KCUR on the way to work, NPR Radio and they had a, like a, a promo on for a new organization called Kansas City Women in Technology and a program that they were doing to teach kids how to code, specifically tween girls. And it's called Coding in Cupcakes and isn't that a cool thing? Blah, blah, blah. And as almost as a footnote at the end of it, oh, by the way, they're also going to do this.

Tamara Copple [00:05:34]:
They're starting this new program called Coding and Cocktails for adults over 21. Women specifically, it was a women only program. And Matt says, tamara, you're going to that. You need friends, you need more people in your life. And I'm like. And I had been talking about what do I want to do next in my career? Because at that point, like I said, dead end job. What am I going to do? I was kind of at a good inflection point. And he said, I'm a developer.

Tamara Copple [00:06:05]:
You have a developer's brain. I know you can do this. I want you to go out there and Give this a try. And I did. And I was at the very first, very first coding and cocktails ever held. It was a shit show. Oops, sorry. Am I allowed to say that? Yes, we're pgk and in all the best ways, in the way that first events are not organized very well.

Tamara Copple [00:06:30]:
But what really impressed me was there were women developers there who were friendly, they were encouraging. Fifteen minutes into this particular three hour, you know, session, my computer did a blue screen and decided to do like five years worth of updates. And by the time I got back on, I was 30 minutes behind where everybody else seemed to be in the room. It hadn't been that. There was a woman there at my elbow, literally talking me off the ledge at every single moment. Oh, no, I've seen this error before. Here, let me help you. I would not have continued.

Tamara Copple [00:07:16]:
I would have been out of there in tears.

Diana Alt [00:07:18]:
But that experience, yeah, you're less than an hour in. You don't know any of these people. You don't code because at the time, like you grew up, you started in like project coordination and ba stuff. So you're like adjacent but not coding. And somebody that had no reason to help you just helped you through that. And then what happened?

Tamara Copple [00:07:46]:
I went to the organizer at the end of the night and I said, I, I can't code. I'm not good. I'm not your person to help mentor other women. But if you need a secretary, if you need an organizer, if you need a co, like a social media coordinator, if it doesn't involve code, tell me how I can help because I want.

Diana Alt [00:08:05]:
To get nice, nice.

Tamara Copple [00:08:08]:
And she said, I have exactly the thing for you. I want you to be my co director for this coding and cocktails program. And I said, you didn't hear me when I said I don't code. Right? She said, let's have a chat. And that began about a three year stint as the co director for coding and cocktails. They did have a software developer who was another woman. Her name is Sarah Dutzman and she is amazing. And, and she was helping to come up with the curriculum.

Tamara Copple [00:08:38]:
Now, the base of coding and cocktails is if you've never touched a website before from the back end, and I'm not talking about wix, I'm talking about actually going in and writing HTML and css, right? You've never done that before. You come in to an all female crowd for about four hours, we're playing music in the background, dinner is served, cocktails included, if that's what takes the edge off to help you relax and then you get to dabble in HTML and CSS with other people who are doing it for the first time and probably just as scared out of their minds as you are or like I was at the time, if it turns out to be something that you like and you want to keep dabbling in. There's a whole community in Kansas City, Women in Technology.

Diana Alt [00:09:25]:
Yeah, it's a pretty big group and.

Tamara Copple [00:09:28]:
We, we lift each other up and that's what has kept me involved with Casey Witt these whole these years. That was 2015 and I'm still involved with them. That was 10 years ago.

Diana Alt [00:09:38]:
Yeah.

Tamara Copple [00:09:39]:
And that community building, that outreach, that genuine warmth and people who were willing to help me got me out of that. I mean punchline. Sorry, took a long time to get there. The punchline is it got me out of that dead end job, helped me gain the confidence that I needed to be able to actually leave. What was, I didn't realize it at the time was both a dead end job and a toxic job. But to leave a place that I.

Diana Alt [00:10:08]:
Didn'T know, we don't realize that till we leave sometimes.

Tamara Copple [00:10:13]:
It, it helped me realize that I'm actually a pretty damn good ba. It helped me recover self confidence that I had just that had been slowly, you know, atrophying over the years and helped when the time came, helped me launch my speaking.

Diana Alt [00:10:35]:
And a bunch of.

Tamara Copple [00:10:36]:
Things already out there.

Diana Alt [00:10:39]:
At the same time you were in Casey Witt, you also were like quickly becoming a big leader in the Kansas City IIBA which I helped found 5 million years ago or really like 20 years ago. Close to 20 anyway. So you really have been driven by building intentional relationships through community. That's how you have done that. So what are your thoughts? How have you layered in one on one into your intentional relationship building? Because so many people, like your husband is a developer. He's an extroverted developer developer. So he's a little bit of a different ball wax. But a lot of people that are in this tech tech adjacent space that you and I are both serving are much more introverted.

Diana Alt [00:11:33]:
Like they don't love group things. So what are you doing to build relationships with people one on one? How are you thinking about that?

Tamara Copple [00:11:46]:
One of the ways that I try to, that I try to build relationships with people is when I follow them on LinkedIn. I will sometimes send them private messages and say, hey, I saw your post about xyz. Would you like to talk about that some more? It sounds like you're having a Hard time. And I want to be here to be, you know, a sounding board if you need anything.

Diana Alt [00:12:07]:
Right.

Tamara Copple [00:12:08]:
I have as a. As the president of the Kansas City IIBA chapter, one of the things that I liked to do, and I tell all the other presidents, this is the highest touch, you know, highest effort thing you can go through, but it'll have the highest reward. I will reach out to individual members and say, hi, this is who I am. How can we be serving you better? And would you be willing to talk to me about that a little bit? It's not an ask.

Diana Alt [00:12:38]:
Yeah, go ahead. That we live in the age of Zoom and that one of the most valuable things that people can do is go get a free calendar tool, which Zoom may have it embedded now, but a free Zoom, even if you don't want to spend any money, you can talk for up to 40 minutes on free Zoom and then go get you a free calendar booking tool, whether that's calendly or something else, so that you can have those conversations. And I think every single person can do that and start to have the conversations, that they're kind of wondering how that they can happen. And the way that those happen for me is exactly what you're talking about. They happen two ways. Either I've gotten to be chummy in the comments or the DMS with somebody, and we decide we're gonna take it. We're gonna take it to Zoom or in person. You know, I don't do as much of that, but Because I talk nationally, but you can do it that way.

Diana Alt [00:13:43]:
Or somebody introduces me. So there's nothing more powerful in building intentional relationships than a warm intro.

Tamara Copple [00:13:52]:
And I, I think about every time I'm. I'm approached by someone, I think about all of the people who were ahead of me on the career. I, let's say on the career path, not necessarily the ladder, but the path ahead of me on the path and reached backwards to pull me along.

Diana Alt [00:14:14]:
Yeah.

Tamara Copple [00:14:14]:
And Sharon is definitely one of those, and Jennifer Wadella is one of those. And there have been other people in my life, too, who have reached backwards to help bring me forward. And so part of my, you know, part of my ethos, core values is to help lift others up the way that others have helped to lift me up.

Diana Alt [00:14:39]:
Yeah, I think I like that imagery of, like, bringing people forward. I don't like up and down language. Like, I'm very flat. You know, I'm the top person in my company, and I always will be like, I'm the CEO. But even so, when I was in corporate, which I was for 20 years until 2019. I was always trying to treat people like we all have a role in this thing. And if you're 23 and your role is that you are mostly executing what someone else told you to do so you can learn that is just as important as the person that is in the C suite and everything in between. So bringing people forward, especially if you look at it just as in a specific skill.

Diana Alt [00:15:25]:
Because maybe I'm ahead of you on public speaking, but you're ahead of me in terms of figuring out how to be a community builder. Well, I'll. I'll carry you with me for the speaking and you can carry me with you for the community building. That's another thing that I really like to think about. Yeah, cool. So what are some of the most unexpected relationships that you've built? Because there's a whole lot of people. When you know this, when you start to talk to and mentor people about networking, building relationships, getting to know more people, they will often look and see. Well, what they will either say, well, why would I build a relationship with so and so or so and so would never be interested in talking to me? Those are two different angles we hear.

Diana Alt [00:16:14]:
I hear a lot when you think about that. In any other objections to this sort of intentional relationship building and networking, what would be an unusual person that maybe someone else would not expect you built a relationship with?

Tamara Copple [00:16:34]:
Oh, that's. That's a big one.

Diana Alt [00:16:38]:
I know.

Tamara Copple [00:16:39]:
Big one.

Diana Alt [00:16:39]:
16 minutes in and I stumped you already. Woohoo.

Tamara Copple [00:16:43]:
That's how good you are there. Actually, I, I like to develop relationships with other professionals that I want to learn from. For example, I just took the training from the back of the room, virtual practitioner training, earlier this spring, and I loved it. And the gentleman that taught that class, his name is Anil, is someone that I spoke to later. He invited me to speak on his podcast. We talked about product management in the nonprofit world. And I know that he is someone that I can continue to go back to and ask to, you know, questions of as I'm developing my own skills when it comes to the, the TBR style. I talked to.

Tamara Copple [00:17:39]:
There's a gentleman who taught my advanced CSPO class, another one that I took that this spring, and he is the first person that I've ever seen use AI prompting, just incorporate AI prompting into the fabric of what he was talking about. And I thought, is this now the new standard? I went back to him separately and said, is this now the new standard that when you teach A class you should expect to include AI prompting. And he said, no, nobody's requiring me to do this. I just thought it would be value add. And I'm like, yeah, you were kind of right. It is.

Diana Alt [00:18:12]:
It's actually hugely important. We could. I put a pen in. Nerding out about AI. You and I need to talk about that. So basically, you. You are not the person that's walking in, taking a class from the trainer, and then being like, thanks, Mike, I appreciate the. The new letters behind my name.

Diana Alt [00:18:31]:
And I'm gonna LinkedIn with. Connect with you on LinkedIn and never talk to you again. Like, you are not afraid to keep the conversation going. As a person that has sold training in the P, I don't do that much of it now, but as a person that sold group workshops in the past, there's nothing more valuable than being able to get that kind of perspective from people. So I really like that. My most unusual. Go ahead.

Tamara Copple [00:18:59]:
I've always been the person that I want to know how the clock runs. I'm not a clock maker. I don't know how to put the gears together, but I want to crack open the back and I want to see the gears running. So I want to know the secrets of. Of why that worked. Yeah, and there's a whole branding podcast out there that I listen to called why that Worked. And it's interesting. And it's like, I want to.

Tamara Copple [00:19:26]:
I want to understand the why. Why did. Why does something work? Why does something not work? And so I'm the one that nerds out about that. So what I will go back to people and ask after the fact is, yes, I needed to know the information in your class, but tell me about being a trainer. Tell me about, and then I'll go past that.

Diana Alt [00:19:45]:
I actually decided against digging hard into being a Scrum trainer years ago because I found out about it, because one of the organizations that is well known, like, for Scrum certifications and everything, I found out that it was highly political. It had less to do with how good you did at training and more to do with how much you sucked up to the board of people that are responsible for granting the credential that lets you do that. And I'm like, man, I would have wasted years and a lot of money potentially to achieve something that, who knows? Like, if I cross the wrong person, I might not be able to get. So I. Another thing that I like to do, I like to look in the back of the clock just enough to kind of get a feel for a couple Things like, I like to ask enough questions that I can figure out whether somebody's full of crap, because there's a lot of people that are full of crap. Understand a little bit. But for me, a lot of what I'm doing is curating people that I can go back to later. So I don't need to know how the whole clock works.

Diana Alt [00:20:57]:
I need to know a little bit of it so that if you came to me later and were like, God, I really wish I knew how clocks worked, I could be like, oh, well, I learned this. And also, you need to talk to Mary. Like, let me introduce you to my friend Mary. I met, you know, two years ago. So. But one thing that I've really been trying to do more of is get outside the bubble. It's really easy to be in the bubble of, like, oh, well, you're a coach and you're a speaker. Like, yeah, you should hang out with people that coach coaches and coach speakers and speak coaching and whatever all those combinations are.

Diana Alt [00:21:35]:
And then we forget to build relationships with somebody that's completely out of left field. So one of my favorite people that I have on my, Like, I could. We're not super close, but I could definitely text him and ask him for help on something, or I intend to have him be on the podcast, too. It's a. The first black circus ringmaster for Ringling Brothers. Like, I legit am friends with a circus ringmaster. Right?

Tamara Copple [00:22:09]:
That is very cool.

Diana Alt [00:22:10]:
Yeah, yeah, he's. He's great. And I. I met him through a business coach I've worked with for a long time, Terry Weaver. Jonathan Lee Iverson is his name. He was on. I think he was on Terry's podcast. And I'm like, this person is interesting.

Diana Alt [00:22:27]:
And then I friended him on Facebook because he's like, I'm not scared to friend anybody. The worst they'll do is not accept my friend request. And then we ended up speaking at the same event that Terry hosted. And I've been watching this guy for a couple of years. Like, you're so cool. You're so cool. And then I met him, and the day I met him, the first thing he said to me is, I'm so excited to meet you. I've been waiting for this.

Tamara Copple [00:22:54]:
And on that note, let me stop you for just a minute at the risk of, like, you're like, what? And. And. And you're. You hit on it right there. So I've been listening to you through this conversation. You've name checked, Sharon. You've name checked Terry Weaver, you've name checked Lee Iverson and all in glowing terms. You speak the names of people when they aren't in the room.

Diana Alt [00:23:29]:
Yes.

Tamara Copple [00:23:29]:
And that too is intentional relationship building.

Diana Alt [00:23:33]:
Yes.

Tamara Copple [00:23:33]:
And how you speak of others in the rooms that they are not in makes a difference.

Diana Alt [00:23:39]:
Yes. Also branding. Branding is how people like you developing a brand is you trying to figure out, how do I make it easy for someone to talk about me in the ways that I would want them to talk about me. So you're guiding people now. You've had a non profit ba/product career for years and years now. You're great at it, you're known for it in the community, but you want to be known as a speaker because that's the thing you're building right now. So you're giving me the words by being on this podcast, you're giving whoever listens, which, it's a new podcast. Who knows how many people that is? But you're giving them the words of like, oh, Tamara, she worked in tech, but she's the intentional relationships person.

Diana Alt [00:24:28]:
I can learn about that from Tamara. So, yeah, it's, it's important stuff. And then you show when you behave according to your values, then they layer that in because like, yeah, it's cool. Jonathan's a ringmaster. He's amazing. Yes. And a beautiful singer and a wonder. One of the best speakers I've ever heard.

Diana Alt [00:24:48]:
It's like going to church every time that man opens his mouth. But that's not all he is, because if he wasn't generous or he was not as interested in other people as he is in his own goals, then you wouldn't hear me mention him because I wouldn't necessarily think ill, but he's not the kind of person that I would elevate, so very cool. So when you were in that, when you were in those mid-40s and you decided that you wanted to get out of the dead end job, you went to the group, which is cool. Like, you heard about the, you heard on KCUR about the event, you went to it, etc. But when you were thinking about taking the next steps of building intentional relationships, what kind of things came up for you that were blockers sometimes. So, you know what, if anything, made you go, I don't know if I'm comfortable engaging in that group or talking to that person. And how did you overcome it?

Tamara Copple [00:25:56]:
Um, it's about, it's about choices. And I am, I firmly believe in vibes. You, you have to be able to vibe with a group and Casey Witt I vibed with immediately. All I had to do was be at an event where a couple of people said hi and then went on to do their own thing or there was a, you know, a cleat, a clique of people in the corner of the room all talking to each other and not talking to anyone else and I would have been out of there. Yeah, that didn't happen. So, so there's vibe but places where that didn't work in my. I, I was encouraged to join an adult sorority, which I did. It shall remain nameless.

Diana Alt [00:26:39]:
It not after I work out.

Tamara Copple [00:26:42]:
But it, it. The, the women in this adult sorority were nice but they were all part of like a singular mindset and there were certain we shall not ever discuss these topics. Which left a whole lot of territory for difficulties later. We'll just leave it at that. So I ended up like not renewing in that sorority. And that's been a few years back now. I have been to some technical meetups where 100% middle aged white guys in the room and I don't have any concept for it. It's like if I was to walk into the React JavaScript group.

Tamara Copple [00:27:29]:
Nothing wrong with React JavaScript or anybody that goes to that group at all, but I don't know the first thing about it. So unless somebody was to grab me walking in the door and say, you are new here. Let me introduce you around. Which is what I actually do try to do now at Kansas City Women in Tech events is I will find the person who looks, who looks shy, like they just walked in the door and I will just walk right up and say, hi, I'm Tam. Is this your first event here? Let me introduce you to some folks.

Diana Alt [00:27:58]:
Yeah.

Tamara Copple [00:27:58]:
And get them, get them comfortable. And so you.

Diana Alt [00:28:03]:
Basically for you a blocker would be, I don't know how this is gonna go. Like, I don't know how I feel about walking into this room and how this is going to go. I'm not sure about the vibe. And then you would walk out or never come back if it seemed like an insular or cliquish kind of thing. So that's, that's really cool. You know what I have done to kind of increase my chances of not feeling weird like that?

Tamara Copple [00:28:35]:
What's that?

Diana Alt [00:28:36]:
There's a couple approaches I've taken. One is if I'm gonna try to go attend something and I know a friend is interested, like always try to say let's get the friend. Because then it's at least you and your friend Even if everybody else is nonsense or, you know, not friendly or whatever. But another thing that I did, I remember doing this, there was like during like kind of. I think it was like Q3, Q4 of 2001. So like we're quasi pandemicing, but not really, you know.

Tamara Copple [00:29:12]:
Well, it's kind of in that great 2020 or 2001. That was a lot.

Diana Alt [00:29:16]:
2021.

Tamara Copple [00:29:18]:
Oh, 2020.

Diana Alt [00:29:19]:
One year after 2021, there was like an improv group that was meeting at a library in Stanley. It was like 15 minutes for me and I'm interested in improv and I've actually gone and taken some classes from the KC Improv. But it's like a half day. It's like an ordeal to go down to the KC Improv and take a class when you live in South Olathe. So I decided, well, why don't I just go over to this thing? I didn't know anybody in there from Adam. I found it on meetup and there was literally zero friends of mine that were in that meetup whenever I looked at the roster. So I made a point to introduce myself in their little thread that wasn't super active. I almost didn't do it.

Diana Alt [00:30:06]:
But what I found is that a couple of people responded, including the organizer. So I had said, okay, well, I'm going to this on such and such day. I introduced myself on the platform that I was going through and the organizer replied back. And if he hadn't, I would have made a point to also DM that organizer and say, I'm going to be there. So I think that a lot of times people just want. We want other people to connect with us, but we make it harder by not thinking about what is the step that I could do that would make this more comfortable for me. It's like they. When you do that, you put it all on the group, like it's now the group's responsibility for my comfort.

Diana Alt [00:30:52]:
And yes, a group can make you uncomfortable for sure. But like, why should it be a hundred percent on women in Tech or Iiba or random improv meetup group to make me comfortable? Why can't I think about what would make me feel good and plant some seeds before I show up?

Tamara Copple [00:31:10]:
Yes. And I don't think that that relieves the organization or the meetup organizers from. From developing a culture that they want to.

Diana Alt [00:31:24]:
I agree with that. But I'm also a stoic and I believe in controlling what I can control.

Tamara Copple [00:31:30]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:31:30]:
And I can't control if they have a culture that does that I can control if I maximize the opportunity for someone to notice that I showed up and it worked. Like I went into that. It's, you know, it's not always convenient. I went a few times, I haven't gone in a while because they kind of, the group kind of fell apart later on. But yeah, I mean people knew me and talked to me when I showed up and there was somebody else that it was their first time and I ended up talking to that person because I could tell that they were by themselves. And I'm like, hey, how are you? Oh, I'm good.

Tamara Copple [00:32:08]:
It always comes back to the golden rule, you know, treat others the way you would like to be treated. And if you can articulate for yourself this is how, this is what makes me feel welcome, this is what makes me feel included, this is what makes me feel part of a group. And then also secondarily recognizing maybe I am more of an extrovert than other people. So what additional things would I need to be aware of? If I sense that someone is an introvert or someone is shy or someone is has social anxiety, how can I be more sensitive to that? So there's what makes me comfortable and then reflect that back in the way that I want to treat other people and then take it a step further.

Diana Alt [00:32:54]:
Yeah.

Tamara Copple [00:32:55]:
And that takes self awareness plus yes, I agree.

Diana Alt [00:32:59]:
And as a coach, a lot of times what I'm asking people is what would make such and such work for you? Like, I'm not a cookie cutter kind of gal. There's very few things that I consider absolute in life. So I will often say like I do think relationship, like the power of relationships and building your career and navigating a job search is one of the absolutes. But I don't think everybody has to go about it the same way. So for you, like you've talked repeatedly about groups. Well, I'm more of a one on one girly. So I might prefer to go down a path where I am engaging in discussions. I'm like a hyper engager in like online groups or you know, comment sections or whatever.

Diana Alt [00:33:46]:
I just like to chat with people. I might want to take a different approach than you who you're like, I need new friends or I want to learn about this or connect with people doing this. Your first reaction might be to go, which user group in Casey or which, you know, community event that's happening is going to work for me? They're both doing the same thing though.

Tamara Copple [00:34:11]:
So they are. And I've never been Matt and I Met in college long before dating apps were a thing. So we have both agreed that if anything happened to the other one, neither one of us would feel comfortable going to a dating app. It's like, I don't even know how that would work. So for me, I think what makes me nervous about one on ones is that if I haven't met them in a group setting where there are other distractions and other people, if it turns out that individually, let's say it was you and me, if it turns out that you and I really don't have anything in common, we could find polite ways of concluding our conversation and drift into other conversations.

Diana Alt [00:34:59]:
Okay.

Tamara Copple [00:34:59]:
And with no harm, no foul.

Diana Alt [00:35:01]:
Yeah.

Tamara Copple [00:35:01]:
Whereas if you set out whether. Whether it's a dating app or whether it's. And there's ladies meetup groups and stuff like that that I'm following as well. And it always makes me a little nervous because it's like, what if I get there and I don't like them? What if I don't vibe with them? What if it's just one person who shows up and it turns out we don't really hit it off? How long do I have to stay? And oh my God, how would I. I have the same insecurities that everybody else does.

Diana Alt [00:35:32]:
Yeah.

Tamara Copple [00:35:33]:
Give you an example. My HOA party, my HOA adult swim night was Saturday and Matt wasn't feeling well, so he went home. And plus, it was like what, 80, 90, 90 plus degrees outside and humidity, like 100%. The party went on from like 4 to 10.

Diana Alt [00:35:50]:
Okay.

Tamara Copple [00:35:50]:
And there was nobody there that I could talk to. Surprise. There was nobody at my HOA party that I could talk to. Why? Well, there were little friends, cliques and neighborhood cul de sacs where everybody knew everybody else. But the guy that lives across the street from me was out of town and the family next door to them has kids, so they weren't going to be there. So I ended up sitting, swinging my legs over the side of the pool, sitting there by myself, smiling, looking like I was having fun. So it still happens. And I am a connector.

Diana Alt [00:36:30]:
Okay, I'm gonna poke at this for a minute because you described a six hour long event that you walked into at some point. I don't know how long, but it was a long event. Multi hours that you felt awkward in. Yeah. And I've been in that situation, although I'm more likely to give it 45 minutes and leave if it's something like that.

Tamara Copple [00:36:53]:
Well, I was helping to organize the party, so I was cleaning up the table and I was consolidating food and I was making.

Diana Alt [00:37:02]:
Yeah, well, here, here's the thing though. When I think about the awkward situations, I actually think it's important for people to build reps in dealing with the awkward for their future prospects to connect with people that they do want to connect with. I don't think it's a one on one kind of thing like you hearing about Casey Witt and then showing up to an event that you're interested in and it had an activity like definitely that's something a beginner can do. But when you get to the point where you're really committed to, like, I want to make sure that I'm in the rooms where it happens. Sometimes the room sucks, sometimes the person sucks. So you got to set guidelines for yourself. And also look at what are, what are tactics I can think about whenever the room feels weird. And I'm going to tell you the top one that I've run across is if you want to be interesting, you have to be interested.

Diana Alt [00:38:09]:
So simply introducing yourself. Oh, Susie. Oh, you live down at the cul de sac. Asking someone about their favorite topic, which is themselves, can often break that ice, at least well enough that you can get three or 30 or 45 minutes. When I think about one on ones, I don't do them that often. Like, I'm especially comparing to the size of like network. Like I, I have 12, 000 followers on LinkedIn, which is baffling to me. And I've had people call me an influencer, which I'm not a Kardashian, so I have trouble with that.

Diana Alt [00:38:46]:
But in any case, I get a lot of requests and there are also a lot of people that I would like to learn more about to further my business or my learning. So my take is I actually know if I have something in common with somebody before the first time I meet with them 90 plus percent of the time.

Tamara Copple [00:39:07]:
Right.

Diana Alt [00:39:07]:
The other thing that I would say, and this will help you with dating, should Matt not be around, we're not.

Tamara Copple [00:39:15]:
Going to talk about that.

Diana Alt [00:39:17]:
But it's, it's actually a tactic that people use when dating and I think it works with one on one networking too, which is meeting. If you're meeting in person, meet in neutral territory and make it short. There's a reason why people do coffee dates and ice cream dates at the beginning of dating. It's because you can do that and be out in 30 minutes without feeling weird about it. But also if you're having a good time, you can sit and you know, drink coffee or get another ice cream or do whatever for as long as you want. So when I'm doing things online, I book 30 minute networking meetings with people I don't know yet. Yeah, that's how I manage that because I can do that. And I also have had like on my calendar system, I could build a 15 minute meeting one if I wanted to.

Diana Alt [00:40:11]:
So if you're like, this is really squirrely, I don't, I'm not sure you could send that person the 15 minute meeting. But that's kind of how I manage it is I just have that first interaction be short and then say, oh. You can easily say, oh, so interested in talking to you more about blah. And then if you have time on the calendar, you can keep going or you can just say, do you want to book more time next week? Those are things that can help reduce the awkwardness of feeling like, wow, I booked an hour call with this rando and I don't know what to say for an hour.

Tamara Copple [00:40:45]:
So there's a lot you can tell from those meetings too. For example, one of my mentors early on in Casey Witt said, yes. And if you're a no show, if you book, first of all, I will provide you with my calendly. If you want to meet with me, you have to take the initiative to book time on my calendar. I am not going to chase you down.

Diana Alt [00:41:07]:
Correct.

Tamara Copple [00:41:08]:
Number two, if you're a no show, I don't meet with you again. There's going to have to be additional interaction that is of a casual nature or something. If you can't be, if you can't be bothered to tell me that you're not going to be able to make that meeting or even I know some things come up at the very last minute to text that person and say, hey, sorry, last minute thing can't make it. Or you know, just be communicative. If you can't be communicative and no show, then you've lost credibility with the person who's granted you free time.

Diana Alt [00:41:44]:
Access is everything.

Tamara Copple [00:41:46]:
Access is everything.

Diana Alt [00:41:48]:
You have to.

Tamara Copple [00:41:48]:
And that's what you can tell in 15 minutes. You know, you can get a sense of this is the question that I had for you or this is what I'm interested in. And you especially are really good about saying, you know what, I'm not your girl for this, but I know who might be. Let me hook you up.

Diana Alt [00:42:05]:
That's another reason because like the thing that people don't realize on the back end of A business. So it's good to do that anyway. Like just. Yeah, when someone comes to you and you're not their person, I don't care what it is referring to someone that can help is a good thing to do no matter what. I have seen superpowers happen or like super relationships come of a job candidate getting turned down because, oh, I'm so sorry, like we love you as a potential employee, but like you just don't have enough of X. And then you send that recruiter, here is the person I know another. If, if X is the problem, you should interview Tamra. You should do that because now you're building a relationship with the company and you're building a relationship with Tamra.

Diana Alt [00:42:55]:
So that's like a real word thing a job seeker could do. But on the backside, like for people that are wanting to build businesses, even if it's a side hustle alongside a full time six figure job, there's this thing called referral fees and affiliate commissions. And when you get to know who are reputable, great people doing things that you don't do, those introduction introductions that are the right thing to do can also turn into money. And I'm, I'm a big fan of that. You know, I know people that, that's like the majority of their income in their business. That's not me. I will probably make $400 from affiliate income this year, which is fine. But that's another aspect, a thing before I want to ask you about a really big topic I think to help people with actually fighting ageism.

Diana Alt [00:43:51]:
And then I want to go into a lightning round and let people know how to get a hold of you. So, and I'm, before I forget, I'm gonna put your, put your email up. It's tammercoppel.com for the people that are just listening on their favorite platform of choice. But okay, so Gen X, we're both Gen Xers, Good, solid Gen Xers, somewhere.

Tamara Copple [00:44:16]:
Along the line, wonderful days of hair bands.

Diana Alt [00:44:19]:
Oh my gosh. I always say, I always say we were raised on hose water and neglect.

Tamara Copple [00:44:28]:
So true.

Diana Alt [00:44:29]:
Coming home when the street lights came on. But I think that something really interesting that you've talked about is the way that you leverage this intentional networking thing and it partners right alongside your attitude of continuous learning, which is really cool. And when I talk to people that come to me, a lot of my clients are, they're like, most of them are leaders. They're either like high impact individual contributors or they're like manager, director, vp. They often ask like, what do I do about ageism? I hit 50 last year, I hit 45 last year, or whatever age they start worrying about that. It kind of varies by industry. One of the things I tell them is the most important is to exhibit that you're a continuous learner that helps make the person that has more years on under their belt be more employable. What's your take on Gen X and continuous learning?

Tamara Copple [00:45:33]:
I have watched adults that I respected become senior adults that I no longer respect because they are. Because their beliefs have calcified, because their ability to try new things has gone from I'm a little uncomfortable with this to I'm afraid of this to I'm going to go back to what I'm really familiar with and comfortable with. The older they get, there's this spectrum of things happening to them. And, and it, And I think that. How do I, how do I say this? Just say, I don't want to be that person. I don't want to be that person.

Diana Alt [00:46:17]:
I think that's.

Tamara Copple [00:46:18]:
I.

Diana Alt [00:46:18]:
It's legit. And I mean, like. And it manifests itself. There's many cultural memes around this. Like, there's, there's. We'll. We'll see a movie where there's like Thanksgiving dinner and it's like your drunken Great Uncle Fred that is like just being the racist in the corner. Like, that's a meme.

Diana Alt [00:46:39]:
Another one is the get off my lawn guy.

Tamara Copple [00:46:42]:
Right?

Diana Alt [00:46:42]:
You know, get off my lawn. Like, that kind of stuff. And when you look into ageism, like, the factors. I've, I've looked at surveys and things on this, and I, I can't quote exact stats right now, but consistently when I read surveys on this, the top reasons that people are unwilling to hire older folk are, number one, money. Because if they can find someone that can do the job that they need to be done for less. And then number two, energy. And are. Have they kept up to date? If there's a perception that somebody that's 15 years younger than you is going to cost 30% less and that they have kept up to date, that's a big hill to climb.

Diana Alt [00:47:30]:
So continuous learning and talking about it and being vocal about what you're doing for continuous learning is one of the best antidotes to ageism there is.

Tamara Copple [00:47:42]:
And I am. There's. There's a couple of paradigms that have been floated in front of me, and I'm still trying to suss out exactly how I feel about them all. But one thing is, in the stoic sense, what do you have control of? And what do you not have control of?

Diana Alt [00:48:02]:
Not how many times you've orbited the sun.

Tamara Copple [00:48:06]:
I don't have control over whether someone is going to judge me by what they think I'm going to ask for in a salary or what they assume that I am going to be bored by. If I decide to take a step back, I can only explain. Yes, I would like to. I'm reaching my retirement years. I need to have a job where I'm not working 65 hours a week. Really am looking for something that I can be good at and perform at without, you know, without spending nights and weekends. Right. And I'm willing.

Diana Alt [00:48:40]:
I want to, but, you know. Well, I want a job that's less stressful because I'm building a speaking career and that's enough stress.

Tamara Copple [00:48:48]:
Right.

Diana Alt [00:48:48]:
So I want to chill a little bit. Yeah.

Tamara Copple [00:48:51]:
And the second thing that has floated across me lately is the idea that as Gen Xers, having done our time in the trenches, the corporate trenches, there's a lot of us that have. Anytime we have 10, 15, 20 years of experience as a bonus, you've got everything that you need to strike out on your own. If that is something that you are not scared to death by. Right. If that's something that you're interested in. There's becoming a market out there for fractional everything. Fractional marketing, fractional coo, fractional CEO, fractional cfo. If you have a bench depth of experience, you can strike out on your own as a consultant sometimes.

Tamara Copple [00:49:41]:
And this is kind of where Matt and I were. We put together an LLC originally as a stopgap in case one or the other of us was laid off, and it has become something else. Right. But that was. Yeah. So that is. There is an evolution out there. There is a podcaster that I like to listen to named Brett Trainor, and he's the corporate escapee.

Tamara Copple [00:50:08]:
He focuses on that, on Gen X. And that. That speaks to me as a person of a certain age.

Diana Alt [00:50:18]:
Yeah.

Tamara Copple [00:50:19]:
And what am I still capable of doing? Right.

Diana Alt [00:50:22]:
Yeah. No, I think that's really good. I will say, though, I do not think that everybody is capable of consulting. Even if you put the caveat of, if you want to, there are a whole lot of people that have done the same year of experience 20 times. That's not how you and I roll. We figure out how to have three years of experience in one year. We go. We go hard.

Diana Alt [00:50:47]:
But, yeah, I think that's good. Well, thanks.

Tamara Copple [00:50:49]:
That's a good way to put it.

Diana Alt [00:50:51]:
Thanks. For speaking to that. I really appreciate it. I'm gonna go into a lightning round now and then we'll let people talk about like, what you're doing in more detail and how to get a hold of you. So my first question in the lightning round is what is the worst piece of career advice you've ever received?

Tamara Copple [00:51:12]:
HR is there to help you. Wrong.

Diana Alt [00:51:14]:
That's real.

Tamara Copple [00:51:16]:
HR is there to prevent your company from being sued by you.

Diana Alt [00:51:20]:
Correct.

Tamara Copple [00:51:21]:
Or being sued, period. That's all HR is there for.

Diana Alt [00:51:25]:
Yeah. So I think that there's. I don't think it's like so dangerous that you should never talk to hr, but you. Any conversation you're having with anybody, you need to understand what their interests are and act accordingly. So what is a personal habit other than this intentional networking thing that we've spent 45 minutes talking about, or 50 minutes, what is a personal habit that has helped you be successful?

Tamara Copple [00:51:55]:
I am a to do list person and I thrive on just writing down everything that I have to do from, you know, the minor to the major. And when I get overwhelmed, this happens every, every couple of months or so. I have a long list of things to do and everything feels like it's urgent. So I've started applying the same prioritization questions to my personal life that I have to my backlog management at work.

Diana Alt [00:52:27]:
Okay. You're gonna have to tell the people what those are.

Tamara Copple [00:52:30]:
Okay. So first of all, is this a deadline that I'm self imposing because I feel like. And that goes to the bottom of the list because if I'm the only person who's negatively affected because it doesn't get done, then it goes to the bottom of the list. Who's depending on me for X? Is it an HOA newsletter submission? Is it a I have to get an email out. This person just got laid off and asked for an introduction who's waiting on me so that I don't become the bottleneck and who is affected if I don't do this and then when I've eliminated like the most important and the least important, then I start prioritizing this and say, can this be pushed off a little bit longer? Can this be pushed off? And if not, you know, if it's like I want to write a blog post and I know it's going to take me three hours to write, which we can argue that takes too long. But if, if I'm going to write a blog post and I need a certain amount of time for it, I will factor in the amount of effort that I want to put into it against how long it's going to take me to do. And if it's got a deadline, then I will do it sooner because I don't like procrastinating. Oh yeah, Matt's the opposite.

Tamara Copple [00:53:48]:
He thrives on those last minute. I'm going to squeak in under the deadline high pressure situation and I'm like, oh, hell no. I have to have my plan A, B, C, D and you know, all my alternatives. But that's my business analyst brain.

Diana Alt [00:54:05]:
Yeah.

Tamara Copple [00:54:05]:
So yeah, I apply prioritization. I have a backlog and I apply my prioritization to it.

Diana Alt [00:54:14]:
I like it. I do too. It's a little looser, but I do like, I'm more likely to use Moscow. So must have, should have, could have, won't have. I do that in my business a fair amount. Because like when you're working full time and you have an appointment based business, there's a lot of Tetris happening.

Tamara Copple [00:54:40]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:54:41]:
Especially like in my case I have autoimmune stuff. So my energy is weird. So I'm not just looking at 1 through 10. Sometimes I'm looking at the combination of 1 through 10 plus Tetris pieces that go into the 20 minutes in between meetings and where my energy sits. So that has helped me a lot because I hate it when it's 1 through 10 and then I don't do it in that order. So Moscow helps me so.

Tamara Copple [00:55:11]:
Well, I will do things like I'll set a time or two and I say, okay, my kitchen is driving me crazy. I'm. I. My kitchen is just right over here off camera.

Diana Alt [00:55:21]:
Yeah.

Tamara Copple [00:55:22]:
And I will, I will set the timer and I'll say I'm going to clean for 15 minutes and when I'm done, I'm done. And I'll figure out another 15 minutes later. But then at least it scratched the itch.

Diana Alt [00:55:33]:
Yeah, without.

Tamara Copple [00:55:35]:
And I've given myself some grace to say, okay, I did some work on it. Let me come back to this later.

Diana Alt [00:55:40]:
I'm a fan of the time box. I'm a fan of the time box. My newest personal habit. I found a tool called Boomerang. It's amazing. It works with Gmail. I don't know if they have an Outlook version of it or not, but you basically can pause your inbox. The free version, it's a chrome extension.

Diana Alt [00:56:02]:
So I can click a button in my Gmail box that says pause inbox. And then when do I want to unpause it? You know, do I just want two hours without stuff coming in. Do I want the rest of the day? You know, I've been experimenting with on the weekend, putting Monday morning is when it opens up. But I am an inbox zero person, so it's impossible for me. The minute I see here whatever of a ding in my inbox, I can't even. And I have to deal with it. So it's helped me with that because it lets me bulk, you know, kind of time block dealing with my inbox. That's been a big one for me.

Diana Alt [00:56:41]:
What is something you've changed your mind about recently?

Tamara Copple [00:56:45]:
I feel like a horrible person because I honestly don't. I can't think of a single big thing that I've changed my mind recently.

Diana Alt [00:56:55]:
I didn't ask you about a big thing, Tamara, answer that actual question.

Tamara Copple [00:57:01]:
Oh, what's something that I've changed my mind about what I wanted to have for breakfast?

Diana Alt [00:57:07]:
Sure.

Tamara Copple [00:57:08]:
I think that go to the opposite end of the spectrum. I. I was listening to one of your. Well, I was going to have a big breakfast and then I prioritized, like eggs and bacon and sausage and all that stuff. But it's all high in Weight Watchers points because bacon. Anyway, Weight Watchers is Weight Watchers. And I decided to go for a walk instead. And I prioritized the walk over going to breakfast.

Tamara Copple [00:57:33]:
So breakfast ended up being coffee with. With milk and creamer.

Diana Alt [00:57:38]:
Cool.

Tamara Copple [00:57:39]:
I like it. Does that count?

Diana Alt [00:57:41]:
It totally counts because I didn't say what is something existential or giant that you've changed your mind about recently? I think it can be anything. So yeah, that's why I ask it. And I think it's important for people to understand that adaptability in the brain and like revisiting decisions is really important. And so if that's about your breakfast this morning, great. If it's something big or great, I don't care. Okay, so what are you working on right now? Like, what's coming up for you and how should people find you?

Tamara Copple [00:58:17]:
Well, right now I am working on building an offering for some lunch and learn sessions. Over prioritization, over networking, over intentional relationship building, especially in the work environment. I've got a couple of blog posts that I'm trying to put the finishing touches on and get them, get them scheduled. And yeah, I still have a day job that I love. I work for Children International and in the product space and it would be hard to pry me out of there because I am very purpose and mission driven and they fill my cup.

Diana Alt [00:58:57]:
Yeah, I always love hearing that from you because you're like, how would I? I love it here, why should I ever leave? And I'm like, I mean we could talk about that. But like, you are the opposite end of the spectrum of so many people. So it is great to hear that.

Tamara Copple [00:59:13]:
So I'm sorry, I'm probably the worst potential client because I'm not looking for another role.

Diana Alt [00:59:18]:
I do business coaching. I do business coaching. Job search coaching is not the only thing I do. I do leadership coaching and business coaching.

Tamara Copple [00:59:25]:
True.

Diana Alt [00:59:26]:
So yeah, I'm focused on work. Should feel good for everybody at whatever stage they're at. So you have a website. It's tamaracopple.com or you will. By the time this airs in October.

Tamara Copple [00:59:39]:
The website is up and it has.

Diana Alt [00:59:41]:
Okay, great. I haven't checked it yet. And then TamraCole.com is the best way for people to email you and shoot. You're also on LinkedIn at your extension is basically tamaracopple.com so not 1 2-3-45612-whatever.

Tamara Copple [01:00:03]:
My face is there. So if you can find my glasses then you'll find me.

Diana Alt [01:00:07]:
So it's pretty easy to get a hold of you. So if people want to learn more about your workshops, your keynote speaking, etc, get some thoughts on how to do more intentional networking. Reach out to Tamara, one of those places. So I'm so glad we got to do this. We thought we were going to have to wait a couple months to do it, so I'm really glad we were able to get it done this week and I hope everyone else enjoyed learning about intentional relationships from Tamara today.

Tamara Copple [01:00:36]:
Awesome. Thank you for having me, Diana. This is fun.

Diana Alt [01:00:39]:
You're welcome. Hey there. Do you ever find yourself wondering, is it finally time to walk away from this job? You might want to go over and check out my free mini video training [email protected] it's going to walk you through the four pillars of an aligned career and let you know whether it's time to start making your move. That's isittimetowalk.com and that's it for this episode of work. Should feel good if something made you laugh, think, cry, or just want to yell yes at your phone set, send it to a friend, hit follow, hit, subscribe, do all the things. And even better, leave a review if you've got a sec. I'm not going to tell you to give it five stars. You get to decide if I earned them.

Diana Alt [01:01:25]:
Work should feel good. Let's make that your reality.