Diana Alt [00:00:04]:
Hey, Diane Alt here, and this is Work Should Feel Good, the podcast where your career growth meets your real life. Each week I share stories, strategies, and mindset shifts to help you build a work life that works for you on your terms. Hey there, everybody, and welcome to Work Should Feel Good, the show where your career growth meets your real life. This week I've got something a little bit different for you, and I'm hoping that you like it. I don't think you're going to want to miss it. In fact, a few weeks ago, I was invited to join two of my fellow career coaches, Angie Callen and Scott Gardner, for a live panel discussion as part of Angie's new Job Seeker Summit Momentum series. We did this as a LinkedIn livestream, and the conversation was just too good to not share with you. So Instead of doing a standard issue solo episode or an interview with just one other guest this week, I'm bringing that conversation to you unedited because there's some really good stuff in there that I want you to hear.

Diana Alt [00:01:11]:
Some of the things we talk about are why most people seem to be scaling up nonsense activity in their job search that's not helping them as much as they think, how a lack of clarity is quietly wrecking people's results in the job search, and what actually matters right now if you want to land something in the weird, wild 2026 job market. This is more roundtable than my typical episodes, but that's kind of the magic behind it. You're going to get 3 different perspectives of experienced people that have been working on this for a long time, all poking at the same problems job seekers are dealing with right now. And we don't agree on everything. So listen for what resonates, steal what's useful, and ignore what's not. All right, that's it. Let's get into it.

Angie Callen [00:01:56]:
Happy Wednesday. It's Wednesday, everyone. Happy Hump Day, right in the middle of the day to give you a little juice to push through the end of the week. I am your host, Angie Callen. I am automatically in No More Mondays mode over here, joined by Diana Alt, Scott Gardner, two of my friends from the Job Seeker Summit. And to bring you into up to speed for anybody who just happened to see this but doesn't have the the clue into the Job Seeker Summit. 2 months ago on January 8th, uh, mark your calendar for next year because it'll happen again on January 8th. Uh, 31 of us came together and presented a full 8-hour day of job search advice, insights, tools, tips, an amazing community.

Angie Callen [00:02:41]:
Over 800 of you tuned in to get the goods. And what all of us decided was that it was such a powerful day, there was no way we couldn't continue the momentum, which is why we created this Momentum Series, and you all are joining us for the first installment. So over the next 9 months, each one— each month there'll be a little group of us who are part of the Job Seeker Summit, or maybe some special friends, we'll see. It's my show, I get to decide who comes in and out of it. We'll come here and we'll deep dive into a topic to help all of you out there navigate this wacky, dare we say, dumpster fire of a job market. And that is why we're starting today with how to job search for writer. And this came out— Diane and I were sitting around a table together face to face a few weeks ago and having this like, you know, off-the-cuff conversation. And I said to her, I said, I talk to a lot of people who feel like they're doing the job search wrong.

Angie Callen [00:03:35]:
And I oftentimes say to them, you're not necessarily doing anything wrong, but there's things that you could do writer. And here we are. So when that is your word of the year next year, you can come back and thank me. So I will stop talking. Let's get the two of you to chime in. I want to know your— the number one thing you wish job seekers would just stop doing immediately. Diana, I'm going to come to you first, put you on the spot. What is the one thing job seekers are doing right now that you wish they would just stop immediately?

Diana Alt [00:04:04]:
Scaling nonsense.

Angie Callen [00:04:08]:
Please tell me more.

Diana Alt [00:04:09]:
So this can take a lot of different forms, but the bottom line is that people are so focused on being productive that they're doing what I often call busywork masquerading as a job search or busywork masquerading as networking. So they— the— it all really boils down to like, what are you actually targeting? What are you trying to do? It's not enough to say project manager. It's not enough to say I'll do anything. No one in the history of the world has ever had a job posting that said anything at the top. But having intentionality at the beginning and figuring out how to craft your message correctly and then scaling works a hell of a lot better than just saying, I'm going to sign up for Sprout or whatever those dumb AI auto-apply tools is with my nonsense generic.

Angie Callen [00:05:01]:
I'm just going to take that and pull that out as one thing that job seekers are doing right now that I wish would stop is any sort of mass application automation system. Just don't pay for it.

Diana Alt [00:05:13]:
Or mass networking outreach, 'cause it's all generic nonsense.

Angie Callen [00:05:18]:
Yeah. All right, Scott, follow that one up.

Scott Gardner [00:05:22]:
Well, I wanna build on that by sort of just reinforcing it. And whenever I talk to someone, I always ask them what their goals are. And what I'm really looking for from them is the idea of clarity. What role do they want? What industry do they wanna work in? What level are they targeting? And if they don't necessarily know all that, maybe it's something as simple as what kind of problem do you want to solve? Because I found without that true clarity, your resume is generic, your networking is vague. The applications, like you just said, are scattershot and they're all over the place and you're just one of another applicant rather than being someone targeted towards what you're looking for.

Angie Callen [00:05:59]:
I bring my friends because they know stuff, not just because it's the same thing I say, but, uh, on my gravestone will be etched lack of clarity in a job search is more detrimental than a bad resume because you probably have one. And what Scott and Diana just said is exactly why. It dilutes your efforts. And I feel that one thing that job seekers maybe need to start doing now is really adopting a marketer mindset versus a job seeker mindset. I said to somebody last week, maybe the best piece of advice I've ever given, and that is that if you— you've got to throw some shit at the wall. To see what sticks in this kind of market. However, if all you throw at the wall is shit, you're gonna have a wall full of shit. And it's pretty much the best summary of how to find a balance between quality and quantity, because you really do kind of have to balance those two.

Angie Callen [00:06:48]:
And if you are just trying to put as much out there as you possibly can, you're gonna sound like a robot, because you're probably using too many robots, and you're like diluting the effort and hiding the unique value proposition that Scott just mentioned as far as like, finding a solution and being a solution.

Diana Alt [00:07:04]:
Yeah.

Angie Callen [00:07:04]:
And so for all of you out there, real quick, Diane, I want to hear that thought, but I'm going to give some pointers to some of the people that have joined. If you're joining us and you want to learn how to job search righter, this is open forum. I literally pulled a couple questions out of the printer and hit live. So this is very unscripted, and we are just talking about what we see out there in the market. So if you've got a burning question or a hot topic you want us to debate, discuss, and advise upon, please throw it in chat. And now, Diana, go ahead.

Diana Alt [00:07:32]:
Uh, you know what I was gonna say? You said look at this like a marketer, and I also think that it can benefit people to look at yourself like a product, which sounds really impersonal and a lot of people hate that. But the bottom line is you're selling a product. It's your services that you're going to trade for a package of compensation, money, and benefits and whatever And there's a concept that a lot of people don't understand, which is product-market fit. And clarity is required to demonstrate product-market fit. Just sitting there and saying, I want, or sitting there and searching for your last job title is not really doing any consideration of product-market fit. Some people are in really high-demand roles and fields and industries and have all kinds of experience and they can demonstrate that they know their product market fit. It's kind of innate. But if you're making any kind of pivot, if you're trying to go a level up the next time, if you're trying to escape something that you did before that sucked, then—

Angie Callen [00:08:38]:
or you're in a role that you expect will be disrupted by AI. Well, right, these are like see-ahead things, and that's a whole big loaded question I have a feeling we'll get to. But you bring up the good point of you have— although the thing I've been saying to a lot of people that I feel like sticks in their head is that like The best way and fastest way— now, fastest and fast are not the same thing. You got to know that. But the, the, the path of least resistance in job searching right now is to be an apple for an apple. And even down to the fact that you kind of need to be a red apple applying for or seeking a red apple, because a green apple isn't necessarily the right thing for the recipe, and an orange definitely is not, right? And so the tighter and more aligned you can make yourself, i.e., this idea of product-market fit, the better someone can understand they need to buy you. Because in marketing and sales and in job searching, a confused buyer is not a buyer. And so, if you're not clear, you can't point a buyer, a hiring manager towards you.

Angie Callen [00:09:36]:
And I think what's one thing I'll, I'll kind of tie this up and then I have the next myth and Scott's going to kick us off is, yes, thinking about yourself as a product can feel a little impersonal, but that could be good. From backing off the emotional tie that we usually link to in a job search. But it also helps you be a little bit more objective about yourself because at the beginning of a job search, you basically are a product because they're reading about you on a document. They haven't talked to you yet. Once you, once you go in and they talk to you, now you have the ability to add the fit part.

Scott Gardner [00:10:07]:
So, and if I may, I have one little part of that marketing I want to bring up, and that's doing actual market research. I think too many people skip way past this, and if you're just reacting to a job posting that you're seeing on LinkedIn in this job market, my opinion is you're behind the curve already. Watch the headlines. Leadership changes. If it's a startup, got new funding, a new product's about to launch. If you're inside an organization, did someone get promoted internally? Or if you're concerned about your company, I mean, the WARN Act requires layoff notices to to be filed months in advance to give their employees head, uh, heads up. So being aware of where you're at, where you want to go, and what's going on will put you ahead than just waiting for a job description to be posted online.

Angie Callen [00:10:54]:
You set us up perfectly. Hold that thought on the job description online, 'cause that's where we're going next. But what Scott just did is bring everything that we've said in the last, uh, 9 minutes and 9 seconds into one cohesive thought and why it is so important to have clarity up front. It drives everything. It drives how you write your resume. It drives how you talk about yourself. It drives your understanding of product-market fit. It drives the ability to tell someone in your network what you're looking for so they can help you.

Angie Callen [00:11:20]:
Right? And if you don't have that, you are just shooting from the hip. And now we got the wall full of shit. And it starts with the fact that I think a really good one-word answer to what I wish job seekers would stop doing is reacting. Because I think that's a lot of what happens. And in the last week or two, Diana and I have both talked to Steve Jaffe, who has a book about layoffs. And it is very much about taking a step back and going through like the grieving process. But I think that's also applicable in a lot of professional aspects of like, we want to react, we trigger happy on the apply button, we want to just do, do, do, because it will fake us out and make it feel productive when it's really spinning in circles. And so I think react less is my answer to the question I asked 10 minutes ago.

Angie Callen [00:12:04]:
So, okay, um, applications. Scott, I'm coming to you first. Is applying online a waste of time, or are people just doing it wrong, or something else? What is your opinion?

Scott Gardner [00:12:22]:
Yes, yes, and yes.

Angie Callen [00:12:24]:
Uh, is it a loaded question, Angie?

Scott Gardner [00:12:27]:
Absolutely not. It's not a waste of time to apply externally to a company. Is it the best use of your time? Probably not. I'm a huge believer in 6 degrees of separation. The relationships I've been able to build from that has been incredible. Do I think networking, leveraging who you know, who they know, who that person they know knows, is going to be the way to really find opportunity? Yes, but that requires effort. If you're going to go about applying online for a role, though, you can do it. First, we've talked about being strategic, knowing what you're looking to do.

Scott Gardner [00:13:01]:
At that point, yes, it's a great idea to make sure the messaging on your resume is strong, but that needs to be complemented by the LinkedIn, reinforcing what you're doing there, showing credibility, building momentum behind that. And that way, when you get to the point of an interview, there's some validation to what's being presented. That can build a stronger external applicant with no direct connection, even second-degree connection.

Angie Callen [00:13:26]:
So the answer to— short answer to the question is yes and— yeah, Diana, add your flavor.

Diana Alt [00:13:34]:
A couple— two things come to mind. Number one, I think anybody that's not conducting a multi-channel job search is doing it wrong. So that applies to literally everybody and So applying online, I am pro applying online. I follow a lot of like very generous content creators who are recruiters that will say, all y'all hearing that 80% of roles are filled, you know, by networking or whatever, their hidden job market, everything's 80%, right? I'll have you know that last year I filled 58% or 78% or whatever large majority number from cold direct applications. So we want to do both of these things. And even for people that are on the executive side where they're maybe using executive recruiting firms, you still got to network. So there's no, there's no like picking only one and doing that. You might invest a different proportion of time depending on what's going on, but yes, you got to do both of them.

Diana Alt [00:14:37]:
The other thing to remember is that every single point Like, I think about signals a lot. Liam Darmody got me into this language because he talks about LinkedIn being a signal farm. Um, and so everything that is throughout the process of hiring from the very beginning to onboarding is a series of signals and decisions. So every single thing that you provide out to the world should be helping someone make a decision about you. And everything you take in should be helping make a decision about you.

Angie Callen [00:15:10]:
So yes, uh, the multi-channel, multi-pronged, diversified job search is bingo. I've never subscribed to the all-or-nothing in most cases, right? There are, there are, there are exceptions to every rule, but in general what I find is that, you know, applying online has some validity if you're an apple and know what kind of apple you are. And it's close to close, close, right? And you've got the clarity. But I've also had— this actually happened yesterday. So here, I'm going to prove Diana's point. I have a senior-level executive, high earner, who is job searching. And we've been using job boards as a place to research, which is also a very good place to use them for when you're finding your clarity. And here he comes across an SVP role at a company in his target market and he knows the CEO there.

Diana Alt [00:16:01]:
Great.

Angie Callen [00:16:02]:
You think we would have pulled that idea out of our you-know-where had it not just passed our view online? And that's the thing is that you— it can jog your memory. It can trigger people that you, you may not have thought of in your network or can signal amazing— it can signal opportunities at places that you may not have known were hiring or had your role open. You can see confidential postings on there. And so It isn't to me just about using it as its own channel, but it's a channel that can also inform opportunities in the other channels. And that's where the online stuff becomes really powerful. And why I think if you have that diversified strategy and you kind of use everything in tandem with each other, the ball gets rolling and things get tight.

Scott Gardner [00:16:46]:
Yeah.

Angie Callen [00:16:47]:
Okay. Do each of you have a piece of paper and a pen? These people have no idea what I'm throwing at them, by the way. I've decided that this might be—

Diana Alt [00:16:55]:
What color?

Angie Callen [00:16:56]:
Okay, uh, we're gonna have a little of a game show moment here. So, uh, if you just have a piece of paper, I'm gonna ask you to write one word on a piece of paper and hold it up in your—

Diana Alt [00:17:05]:
hold it up.

Angie Callen [00:17:06]:
They really had no idea. This is— I've decided this is Job Seeker Summit.

Diana Alt [00:17:10]:
You can see it.

Angie Callen [00:17:13]:
Always a fun time around here. Sharpie's good. Yeah, I made Scott stand up. I hope he's not wearing plaid PJ pants.

Diana Alt [00:17:21]:
I got it. Let's go.

Scott Gardner [00:17:22]:
Oh, I'm still in khakis. Everything's good.

Angie Callen [00:17:26]:
I would be— I would be— if you were Jim, my husband, he'd probably— he wears a flannel, but then he usually has flannel PJ pants or his Carhartt sport pants. Okay, I'm gonna ask you a question without saying anything. I want you to write the one-word answer you have to it in like big all caps. What is something job seekers obsess over in their resumes that actually doesn't matter as much as they think. All right, ready? 1, 2, 3, show them. 1. You ready, Diana?

Diana Alt [00:18:11]:
That's a long word. I changed my mind.

Angie Callen [00:18:15]:
Oh, 1, 2, 3.

Diana Alt [00:18:18]:
Metrics.

Angie Callen [00:18:19]:
So basically we all just said the same thing in 3 different ways, which is why I wanted to do it, because people obsess over tailoring so that they can beat the ATS. Metrics is a little bit different, but I agree.

Diana Alt [00:18:30]:
Yeah.

Angie Callen [00:18:30]:
So Diana, you tell us about metrics and then Scott and I will go off about ATS and tailoring.

Diana Alt [00:18:36]:
I want to help go off on those too, but—

Angie Callen [00:18:38]:
Okay, well, we're also headed somewhere.

Diana Alt [00:18:41]:
So another way, what I, what I probably should have written is numbers, but People are obsessed with this idea that when any, anybody, whether they've taken their own advice or not, will tell people, we need to— you have to have numbers on your resume. You have to have numbers on your resume. The only number that has to be on your resume is your damn phone number.

Angie Callen [00:19:03]:
It's so true. I mean, 10, 10 years ago, this became just this norm, and it's been, it's been beaten into people's heads almost as as much, if not more, than the damn one-page resume.

Diana Alt [00:19:14]:
Now, I, I'm pro-metrics, I'm pro-numbers, but I don't talk to my clients in that way. I talk to them about showing impact with context. Yes, impact with context. And that can be done with numbers. You need to pick the right numbers to show for what you're targeting. Um, but also sometimes it's qualitative. Sometimes you got an award, Sometimes you got an award for being the best whatever. You got a regional recognition in your industry.

Diana Alt [00:19:44]:
You got something like that. That is definitely showing impact. You impacted a whole Midwestern— the whole Midwest in your industry. That shows impact.

Angie Callen [00:19:53]:
And some roles just don't have a lot of numbers. Some roles are more qualitative in their impact. But then on the flip side, one of the things that, that I think is, is a little bit irritating is, is one, you can stretch yourself to like go find numbers or get caught up in this. Like, I don't have metrics to prove anything, right? There's other ways to do that. But then also, how many times have you seen a sales resume that's just a run-on of bullets about outperforming quota and how much money they served with no context to know it? And so it's metrics without context are just numbers.

Diana Alt [00:20:23]:
Yeah, I can pull that out of the—

Scott Gardner [00:20:26]:
yeah, building on exactly what you're saying. Numbers are fine. I like numbers in a resume, but what's the real lever in all of it? What skill did you use to achieve that outcome? What was the action you used? And then showcase it that way. A bullet point on a resume can You can include a number, but, uh, is it going to be a skill-focused bullet point? Is it going to be an action-focused bullet point? Is it going to be the numbers, the achievement? And that's what we're trying to highlight. And how do we structure that? Numbers for the sake of just having numbers just is as sloppy as not having any numbers.

Angie Callen [00:20:56]:
And guess what it all comes back to? The clarity and what you're trying to do and how the numbers support it. I feel like this is just, uh, I basically invited the two of you to a rant session. This is really fun.

Diana Alt [00:21:07]:
I'm okay with that. Why do you think I signed up to come? And I picked the two people I knew could rant well.

Angie Callen [00:21:13]:
Um, okay, let's talk about qualifications. I'm actually curious to hear what you guys think about this. Scott, I'll let you lead off. For a long time, we talked about if you're 70% qualified for a role, you've got a shot and it's worth it. What do you think that number is now? Does that still stand? Like, how qualified do you really need to be to apply for a job, using the apply word lightly? Scott, what do you think?

Scott Gardner [00:21:40]:
Cold apply? No, no one there, no nepotism, you're not a director's kid. I think you need to be pretty darn qualified. I think you need to be 99% qualified, but with the volume of applicants, with some of the real tools that are coming out that are able to flag some of these unqualified ones— I was just reading about the one that called Real Talent that Greenhouse introduced yesterday out of beta testing that can qualify at-risk applicants or higher-risk applicants. I think that you need to be really qualified nowadays. I mean, top 15, 20 percentile of the applicant pool.

Angie Callen [00:22:22]:
Well, and this goes back to— I almost glazed over our opportunity to sound off about these things that kind of visit— dovetails off of the ATS situation. And so in your, in your opinion, why do you wish people would care less about it?

Scott Gardner [00:22:38]:
Oh, why I wish people care less about the ATS? Because they just work on it, they focus in on it, they forget that hiring, like your shirt says, is human at the end of the day. You can go to these corporations' websites, they'll still tell you on the ATS company's websites that people make the hiring decisions. People are reading through them. A human is rejecting your application. Yes, we want to comply with it as much as possible through simple formatting and making sure things align. You want to make sure you answer the knockout questions accurately and honestly. But the idea that you're going to beat the ATS and position you to be the top candidate is a lie that has been propagated by too many.

Angie Callen [00:23:15]:
Yeah. And that's where I think the obsession with tailoring kind of needs to go away, because tailoring is all about beating the ATS. I talked to a guy yesterday who's like, yeah, I keep putting my resume into one of those tools and I keep getting only 70%. And I'm like, yeah, because you're putting it into a tool that's trying to make you buy it, right? And so that's all, that's all like a little bit of a racket. There's— and again, I think the point that all of us have made across many of these topics is, is be less reactionary, be more discerning, and, and, and find a neutral ground, right? This isn't about beating an ATS. It's about navigating a technology system that parses data enough in order to then have a human read your resume. Because if you're— all you're doing is keyword stuffing a resume to get quote unquote through an ATS, which you can't do anyway, then now you're giving a human gobbledygook to read, right? And at the end of the day, Scott, I'm so glad you said it. Humans still hire humans, and I do not foresee that changing in my lifetime.

Scott Gardner [00:24:11]:
And so no matter what AI does, if you're focused on keyword stuffing a resume, you're going to end up with a strong resume that as soon as you get into a live conversation with the person, they're going to find out you don't meet the bar.

Angie Callen [00:24:22]:
Exactly. Diana, do you have any last words? Because I got a meaty next question for you.

Scott Gardner [00:24:28]:
Oh, I got—

Diana Alt [00:24:28]:
I want to talk about qualifications.

Angie Callen [00:24:30]:
Okay, go ahead.

Diana Alt [00:24:31]:
I think people fundamentally misunderstand qualifications in general.

Angie Callen [00:24:36]:
Oh, tell me more.

Diana Alt [00:24:37]:
Okay. So this, this is taking into account the whole hiring cycle, not just what is like the very first step of applying. For the very first step of applying, my answer to my clients these days tends to be if they have basic qualifications and nice to have broken out, you need to have all the basics to apply, full stop. And I want companies to have that list be as short as possible. But what happens all the time is people will say, well, I'm a perfect fit, or this is perfect for me and I was the most qualified. Like 238 people applied for that. You have no way to know if you're the most qualified. But when they also say things like, well, I don't know, they're just testing interview skills, like they're not getting the most qualified person because they're testing interview skills.

Diana Alt [00:25:27]:
And I'm like, the last time I checked, there's no jobs out there where your ability to clearly communicate in a verbal form is not needed at some point. So if you cannot go into an interview and clearly communicate what you have done, you are in fact missing a key qualification of being a functional professional in the year of our Lord 2026, which in a year, in a year where human skills are more valuable than ever, right?

Angie Callen [00:26:02]:
We have, we have in the last 10 years passed on putting written and verbal communication skills as a bullet on a resume because it implied everyone has them. And I believe we took that for granted. And now they're valuable again. But I think it's really smart to think about not only what level of qualifications, qualification do I need based on a situation, because the flip side of the coin of what Scott said about like if you're applying cold, you got to be 90. If you've got a really solid networking contact, now you could be 70 because they'll take fit over function a little bit to some extent. But before you do any of that, and before you— you have to know how to assess your qualifications. You know, clarity, huh?

Diana Alt [00:26:44]:
What'd you say?

Angie Callen [00:26:44]:
I'm just going to keep beating a clarity dead horse, which I didn't mean to do, but it just keeps coming back to that.

Diana Alt [00:26:49]:
I actually have something related to assessing that I do with my clients that I'd love to share.

Angie Callen [00:26:56]:
Okay, share.

Diana Alt [00:26:57]:
Yeah, I do a little thing I call the stoplight exercise. So really, and I do this in a couple of ways. So I, I do it to help figure out like, are you 70 or 90 or 42, whatever. Basically, you just go through the whole job posting qualifications and duties or responsibilities and mark yourself red, yellow, green. Green, I'm like in the bag, done it multiple reps. Red, don't have it. Yellow is somewhere in the middle. When I do this with my clients, I find that 3/4 of them underestimate their qualifications.

Angie Callen [00:27:29]:
Yes.

Diana Alt [00:27:30]:
The other thing it's really, really good for is leveling yourself. Because when you think about how a principal at one company and a principal at another is not the same, same for director and VP and all of that, people can go through and look at the level and figure out over, you know, assessing 5 or 6 of these at ideally different levels of the same job at the same company are really good to figure out, to look at. You can figure out, am I actually a director or am I something higher or something lower? If you're applying for director roles and you really, from a broader industry perspective in your target market, are showing up like a manager, you are not going to get called even if your resume is stellar.

Angie Callen [00:28:20]:
Yeah. So, and there's, and there's a little bit of a matrix there. And then, Scott, I know you were going to jump in, and I hope you still have that thought, so cue it up. There, there's a little bit of a matrix, but if you can find the general level at which you, you operate, sometimes it can be helpful depending on where you work to know your FAANG level, because then you can determine what is like a level at a smaller company, a level at a tiny company. There's not much bigger than FAANG, but there's a little bit of a matrix there where your level may be based on the size of a company, just because of the scale at which you could work. And it behooves you to have that little bit of a matrix, and so that you can have your stuff pre-tailored to it. Scott, go ahead and share what was on your mind.

Scott Gardner [00:28:59]:
Oh, the idea that sometimes having all the qualifications in the world still isn't enough. Think of some of these higher-paying positions. I was working with someone recently, and they were going after a GC role at a— one of the big 3 AI companies, and the applicant pool for that role is going to be all qualified people. It's gonna be 50 people with Ivy League law degrees, 10+ years of experience operating at that level. So at your point, that point, qualifications don't even matter. I mean, you've hit— you've checked those out. Now we got to work on things like communication and likability, because at the end of the day, these humans— back to your shirt— want to work with with other humans. And that's something that needs to be focused on, that qualifications only get you so far in certain—

Diana Alt [00:29:44]:
your character, your character, and how you are as a colleague matter way more at the level that most of my clients operate. And, you know, all three of us are, are working with phenomenal professionals to where this is true a lot, but there are dozens of qualified people they're competing against, even after recruiting takes out you know, that 80— that there are 80 to 95% of people that are applying that do not meet basic qualifications, you still have dozens to compete with when they filter those out.

Angie Callen [00:30:20]:
And that's high. That quantity is higher now than it was before.

Diana Alt [00:30:23]:
Yeah.

Scott Gardner [00:30:24]:
And at that level, some of the questions that are being asked in the, the person interviewing that applicant's head is, do I want to make hard and difficult decisions with this person? No longer can they do, you know, the job. Do I want to sit with them in a boardroom and discuss restructuring, budgeting, layoffs? Terrible things.

Angie Callen [00:30:43]:
Do I trust them? You know, I love that you two have, uh, have brought this up because one thing that I feel like I'm just getting to pull all of my Angie-isms out of my hat today, but I have yet to be proven wrong on the following, and the two of you have validated why I have yet to be proven wrong on it, and that is that a hiring team of humans— that's the key— will choose the 70% qualified personality fit before they choose the 100% qualified candidate who has a personality like a paper bag.

Diana Alt [00:31:14]:
And this is where I say qualifications people don't understand, because your, your interpersonal skill, your ability to mesh and make a group move forward in the direction they want to move forward is the single most important qualification you have.

Angie Callen [00:31:34]:
And to some extent, I think this is also important, to some extent that is intangible and, and, and not able to be matched until you're in conversation with them, which is why I also, you know, get— be cautious of overjudging, uh, applications online but also overjudging your qualifications to meet it. There's just a whole lot you'll never know, right? You gotta, you gotta gather the breadcrumbs as you go through the process, uh, because you're never really gonna know what a job looks like until you talk to people, and you're never gonna know if you're really the fit for them and they're the fit for you until you talk to the people. So, uh, let's, uh, let's transition for a minute from what irritates us, uh, what everyone is doing wrong, to what we could do righter. So If, if you personally, not to jinx it, had to start a job search tomorrow, what are the first 3 things you would do, Scott?

Scott Gardner [00:32:32]:
So part of me wants to go, okay, I'd clarify my name, my, my narrative of everything we've discussed. I'd audit the resume, make sure that's up to date, and, you know, start reaching out to people. But I just had this— y'all know Napoleon Hill, the idea of building a mastermind.

Diana Alt [00:32:48]:
Like, that's so funny.

Angie Callen [00:32:49]:
I'm reading Think and Grow Rich right now.

Diana Alt [00:32:55]:
Yeah.

Angie Callen [00:32:56]:
Again, I've done it a couple of times, but yeah, it's what I mean.

Scott Gardner [00:33:00]:
I would go to the people I trust and try to get their perspective on me as much as I would just try to define what I want. I would take a short period of time to be much more retrospective on what happened. Before I start planning out what's going to happen. And if you're part of a RIF or you get fired, or that's a lot harder because you might have financial obligations, but if you're starting to really consider a job search right now, be introspective and identify what really matters, and then begin to execute on those other things about defining the narrative, creating the tools, beginning the conversations, and go into it that way.

Angie Callen [00:33:40]:
Yes, uh, I will summarize that in saying you are going to respond to the need to job search before reacting to the need to job search. Uh, Diana, what first 3 things you would do?

Diana Alt [00:33:53]:
First thing I would do is decide, am I in the job market because I'm fully committing back into corporate life, or because there's a short-term financial need I'm trying to fill, or something like that? Because the approach that I take would be different and what I targeted would be different. Assuming that it was, I'm really going to go back into corporate employment for the foreseeable future. The next thing I would have to do is spend time deciding what it was going to be, because I was in tech for 20 years, but I have been out of being a full-time tech practitioner for 7 years. And I have done as much consulting related to talent development, leadership development, I would be deciding, do I want to go back onto that tech side, or have I gained enough experience in my business to move into like talent development or something like that? And probably would end up having to build a plan for bridging some skills. Even if I decided to remain in tech, I'm going to go boot camp on AI and product development or something like that for a period of time so that I'm getting my excellent qualifications from 2019 up to excellent qualifications for 2026.

Angie Callen [00:35:13]:
So it's— that is really a take a step back and remind yourself or find the clarity behind why you're searching and exactly therefore what you should be searching for. And you know, that again, beat the dead horse, clarity. But in this particular situation, that's not— that's important not only because it'll help you get the process started and articulate to people who are helping you you what's going on. But at some point, especially if you're transitioning out of business, that is a unique thing that, that's like a unique thing to consider. If you're transitioning out of a business and you go to an interview, you better have a baller answer to why you're transitioning. Uh, and, and, and so, and I think that's true for anything of like being able to navigate the sticky bits in interviews cleanly. Um, my answer to that question, uh, be especially because you guys have already set the clarity foundation, just call the first person in your Rolodex, call the second person in your Rolodex, and then call the third person in your Rolodex. If you don't know what a Rolodex is, then go get one.

Angie Callen [00:36:08]:
There you go. Can you still buy them?

Diana Alt [00:36:12]:
You can.

Angie Callen [00:36:12]:
It's like, it's like the day I had to explain resume paper to a 24-year-old. I wish you all could have been a fly on the wall that day. Um, let's talk about networking for a second because I think this is, you know, in general, let's just all agree that one of the things people could do righter is to incorporate that channel into their job search and not lean more heavily, as heavily as they do on the online applications. But because people are starting to realize that, I think that there's become a little bit more of a bottleneck in, in networking and building a network from cold. So from your perspectives, what does, uh, effective networking look like in the year of our Lord 2026, Diana?

Diana Alt [00:36:50]:
Relationship-focused, and it's more creative than it used to be. Um, I, I actually got asked to do a presentation next month inside a community for people that are on career sabbatical, that do, are planning and executing career sabbaticals and then subsequent reentry. And while talking to the leader of that community about this presentation, I came up with 3, 3 types of networking people need to be doing at all times in different proportions. One is what I called play, which is basically just talk to people because you like them, because you're curious, you're interested. And just to, like, build and maintain relationships in general as a human. The second is discovery, to figure out what's possible. So that could be, like I said, I might need to go figure out, do I have enough street cred to switch into talent development, you know, or specific opportunities coming up in companies. And then the last is for advocacy.

Diana Alt [00:37:52]:
So if you've done play and you've done discovery and you know where you're going, then you can either with new people or with some of the people you talked about, talked to in the first two segments, turn people into advocates for you for opportunity. So none of that happens with a, a cold DM to somebody that just says, I'm looking for a job, is your company hiring?

Angie Callen [00:38:18]:
You don't take a ring in your pocket on a first date, people. Scott, what is your— what are your thoughts on effective networking in March of 2026?

Scott Gardner [00:38:29]:
I mean, building on what Diana said, I mean, at the end of the day, it's about becoming more visible, really, whether that is through content online, whether that is through, you know, actively engaging in conversation with people. You know, the warm lead is always the best. So the, you know, the referral. So if you can leverage who you know to make introductions, be exploratory to not only, you know, about what you're looking for, but that's okay to advocate for yourself, but also find out what others need. You know, see what's out there. If anything, you might be the person that can bridge another person towards them. And then when it comes to the idea of visibility, I will caution with the amount of just straight AI slop out there that visibility and credibility aren't the same thing. Speaking consistently about what you know is different than just having an opinion on everything to try to create eyeballs on you.

Diana Alt [00:39:25]:
That's a great point.

Angie Callen [00:39:27]:
I think that's a really good point. And to draw the distinction, I'll use an influencer on Instagram who has 100,000 followers. It doesn't mean they actually have like a strong business or a reputation. They just are really good at drawing visibility to themselves. Credibility is, is much more about, I would say, what and who you know, not how many. I think one of the things that's important in networking today goes back to the idea of relationships. And we're in an ecosystem where existing relationships are much more of an asset than they ever were before, because it's harder to break into colder channels. And because of that, having a way for, to activate them, uh, on your behalf, right? So I feel like because we don't wanna ask for help, we end up not asking for help.

Angie Callen [00:40:16]:
But I don't mean that in the fact— in the, in the sense that we just don't go ask. We go have a conversation that isn't going to go anywhere because we don't help them help us, right? You have to create action on the end of the conversation. Like, if you're— yes, if you're having it, if you're having a networking conversation, you have to be able to direct them into a specific type of action in order to help. Now, that doesn't mean, hey, can you help me apply to this job? It doesn't necessarily mean an over-ask. It just means a clear statement of, here's what I'm looking for and here's how you can help, or who do you know in XYZ category who I can talk to, right? Just saying, hey, here's my resume, can you help me out? Isn't going to get you anywhere because even your best friend next door isn't going to do jack with it because they don't know what to do with it. And so in a way, helping someone help you is actually a better ask than the soft that we feel we need to do because we don't like asking for help and handouts, right? If somebody's willing to help, let them help you, because if they're not willing to help, they just don't respond. And that's nothing against you, they just don't get networking.

Diana Alt [00:41:24]:
Yeah. And the one of the most important ways to make that work is not just give them the way to help you, like, oh, could you introduce me to Mary? Or if you hear of something like this, let me know. But if you don't give people the words that they can say about you when you're not in the room, it's harder because it's not cool to just cold introduce people. Like, I know you two— if I had someone that I knew would be a good connection, I don't feel like I have to text Angie to say, would you mind talking to Raj? But that's not how a lot of people are. And when you're trying to basically get permission for these types of strong warm introductions, if they don't know what to say about you, you're not going to get a yes.

Angie Callen [00:42:11]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This goes all the way back to the very beginning of like, if you don't know what you're doing, you can't tell someone else what you're doing, and they sure as hell can't tell someone else for you what you're doing.

Diana Alt [00:42:22]:
It's also okay. And yeah, and it's okay when you're in a discovery mode to say, you know what, I'm figuring out my next move. My background was in product development, and then I was a coach for 5 years, and now I'm wanting to go back in-house somewhere. I'm figuring it out. That's enough. Yeah, you can say that. You don't have to have it all figured out before you book the networking call with someone that you hope can help you figure it out.

Angie Callen [00:42:52]:
Know why you're reaching out to somebody in your network. Some of them will truly be to gather information. Some of them are to edify a relationship that may be able to progress the goal, right? And those are two different things. Scott, go ahead.

Scott Gardner [00:43:02]:
Well, I was just going to say and build on that, apart from the idea of clarity, is once you have the opportunity to have that networking connection, you need to go in with a bit of confidence. Candidates undersell themselves all the time. They downplay impact. They, they, they present things very cautiously for some reason. It's not rude in any way to speak to what you know and what you've accomplished. So they won't know if you don't tell them. And you have to have the confidence in the conversation to be able to do that.

Angie Callen [00:43:31]:
Number 1 tip for that is at work, everything is we. In an interview, everything is I. And that is a huge— for especially for leaders and executives, that is a huge mental shift to make because we, when we're at work, we don't want to take credit for everything or step on toes when a team accomplished something. However, When you are going to an interview, you need to own and be confident in the role you played in outcomes that would not have turned out the way they did had you not been leading the team, no matter how much or how little of the hands-on work you did in between. And you got to own that. We is for work, I is for interviews. How, how fun is that for the W and the I? I've never said that before, but I like it. We is for work, I is for interviews.

Angie Callen [00:44:18]:
There you go, people. Own it. Um, let's talk about, and this is a little bit of more of, I think, a burning question than a how-to job search writer. However, I do think in the job search writer category, this is, uh, uh, expect, set expectations and, and set realistic expectations and perspective on how long is it taking to find a new job? How's that for hot burning question? I'm getting from lots of people and they'll always lead in with like, I know there's lots of variables here. There's lots of things, but how long is it taking? And I have to give the very coachy answer of, it depends. So neither of you get to say it depends, but you get to give your answer to the question. Diana, would you like to start?

Diana Alt [00:45:00]:
I tell people that they need to plan for 6— the people that I work with are mostly at like high-impact senior, high-impact senior individual contributors up through VPs. And I tell them they need to plan for between 6 to 9 months from the time they are able to clearly enter the market. If you dick around with Clarity for 3 months, that 3 months doesn't count.

Angie Callen [00:45:22]:
Yeah. Scott, what are you seeing?

Scott Gardner [00:45:25]:
6 to 9 months, with the exception of the idea of who do you know. If people have the ability to network, you can secure opportunity interviews relatively quickly.

Diana Alt [00:45:39]:
If you're—

Scott Gardner [00:45:40]:
that's just what it comes down to. Yeah, I mean, I don't want— I don't— 6 to 9 months is a great answer, and I concur 1,000% with it. But if you can leverage who you know, you can reduce that 80%.

Diana Alt [00:45:53]:
I, I, I— yes. And the way I explain it to people is that that 6 to 9 months is going to have activity all through it. It'll have lulls through it, and we'll have activity through it. So sometimes it pops. I had somebody that was It took less than 2 months last— like a little while back. And I was shocked because the market was even worse than it was right now at the time that this person was looking. But yeah, you can pop. But if you plan on that, then you can be a little bit less disappointed.

Diana Alt [00:46:24]:
And it's really important for people that are trying to figure out how to manage severance. Do they want to take a break? You know, they got 9 months of severance. Do they need to start right away or can they take a couple of months to rest?

Angie Callen [00:46:37]:
And I think the, the, the 6 to 9 months, I think, is pretty much the going rate for all job searches. It's longer the higher— like, I think it's 9 to 12 if you're in a VP to C-suite role. And the way I frame it is you need to operate under the assumption it's going to take that long. I agree that if you have the asset of an activated network, you can bring that down drastically. However, there's lots of variables there, from the fact that like the higher up the food chain you are, the better the fit has to be and the timing of the roles, right? Which is why just give yourself runway. It's the best thing that you can do. And if you are talking to somebody who is telling you, you can land a new role in 90 days, they are overpromising and you should have your spidey senses up. I'm sorry to put any of our colleagues on alert out there, but that is not trustworthy information.

Scott Gardner [00:47:27]:
I'm not sorry at all.

Diana Alt [00:47:28]:
Yeah, I'm not sorry to put colleagues on alert about that at all.

Scott Gardner [00:47:31]:
Look at this.

Angie Callen [00:47:31]:
Look at this. I'm the one apologizing. These two are like, absolutely not.

Diana Alt [00:47:35]:
It's, it's, you know, there's, there's a lot of things. There's a lot of coaches that don't understand about the FTC. And when you— if there is a coach that is saying people are landing in 60 days to comply with US federal trade regulations and laws, they have to be able to demonstrate with data that that is a typical result.

Angie Callen [00:47:58]:
And the keyword there is typical, not— and I could go on a rant about other places that could, that, that, uh, that blow up atypical data as a norm. Mass, mass appeal coaching programs that will help you grow your six-figure coaching business overnight is one of them. But it's the point that like you need, you need typical information, not the anomaly.

Diana Alt [00:48:20]:
Yeah. And just ask, you know, like I don't have a problem saying I had a client that had a lot of things fall into place through their network and getting lucky and timing, and it was the right time of the budget cycle, and they landed at a FAANG in less than 60 days, which is unheard of.

Angie Callen [00:48:38]:
Unheard of. I mean, the FAANG interview process isn't even that long, which, by the way, let me go back to timelines and what Diana said about how it's not like it's 6 to 9 months of nothing and then all of a sudden you get your hit. I mean, I just had a client who started his new role yesterday and began interviewing with that company in October. 5 months of interviews. Now, it's a very, very high-level role and very, very, very high earning. However, it was 5 months of active interviews and there'll be 2-week lulls between the holidays were in there, right? So a lot of the timeline that we are saying is because, is because of factors that we can't control. But what we can control is how we present ourselves, how clear we are and what we're looking for and who we talk to. And that's where the idea of networking, which actually I'm going to use this as a shameless plug moment.

Angie Callen [00:49:29]:
Next month's Momentum Series is about networking. And one of the things I really want to highlight here is the fact that, like what Scott said, is, you know, you can land more quickly and find a more fitting role and/or find a more fitting role if you leverage your network. And one of my big soapboxes is once you start networking, never stop. Because that's how you have an activated network who can come up to meet the moment versus having to go find and/or activate a network that's cold or lukewarm. So next month on— oh shoot, that should say Wednesday, April 1st. Shoot, April Fools! It's April 1st. Gotta fix that. Wednesday, April 1st, Mark Messiano and Karen Jackson and I will be here sounding off about how to network in a way that actually works.

Angie Callen [00:50:13]:
So basically what we've skim-coated today, we're going to deep dive into so that once you start networking, or even if you are, you've got a plan to continue cultivating that forever. The LinkedIn event has already been created. It is my most recent post on LinkedIn. I threw it up there about 20 minutes ago. So go find it, register for it. And if any of you out there want to see these things, although I'm about to say something to somebody that makes no sense, if you want to see these things, they live in our events. So you can see these at any point in time. So you can hear all of us sound off any time you want.

Angie Callen [00:50:45]:
We've got about 10 minutes left. So if there's anybody out there who's got a burning question, throw it in chat. Otherwise, I can just have these two opine all they want. Let's talk about follow-up really quick. Somebody actually emailed me this morning and said, can you please address this question of— connected to networking. I'm networking with people. How do I keep them engaged? How do I follow up? What do I say? When do I follow up? Now, we're specifically specifically addressing this from a networking perspective, not an interview process perspective. But let's say you do have somebody in your network that's really beneficial to you.

Angie Callen [00:51:23]:
You've had a good conversation with them where there was clear action, and, and you're helping them help you. How do you keep in touch with them? How do you follow up? And what do you say? Scott, I'm going to you first.

Scott Gardner [00:51:37]:
Be engaged in what they need. If this is someone that you know, they're actively in your network, don't have every conversation be you looking for something from them. Check in on someone, how they're doing. How's their new job going? How's the kids doing? However it is on that level. The idea of engagement and networking is not all about I, I, I. It can also be about what they need as well. It's like any relationship, it's a two-way relationship, you know, any healthy relationship, I'll say.

Angie Callen [00:52:02]:
Yes, the operative word, relationship. Yes, symbiosis, not leech. Diana, add your, add your 2 cents.

Diana Alt [00:52:15]:
First set, don't leave the call without having some plan. It's fine to say, is it okay if I check in with you in 2 weeks if I haven't heard anything? We have to do it when we're selling. The 3 of us that own our own businesses, we got to do it when we're selling or we do not eat and live indoors. The other thing is going to sound weird. Never underestimate the power of a well-placed meme or GIF. Because sometimes the way that you are maintaining a tie and building a relationship is remembering what somebody likes. I have a whole set of people in my life that send me taco-related memes and GIFs. They know, they know.

Angie Callen [00:52:59]:
I just sent her pictures of my cat, who's named Taco.

Diana Alt [00:53:03]:
Yeah. But it doesn't have to be aware. Now, if you want to keep it more professional and you remember, oh, this person has been you hear they've read a book about something or they did a training on how to make Claude take over your whole life or whatever, then send them a thing that you read about Claude or about another tool and keep it with their interest and say, I thought this might help you. But if you have a little bit more of a friendly relationship or you feel like you want to test this, send them something funny. Because getting something funny at 2:30 in the afternoon, whenever you've been in meetings for 5 out of the 6 hours of the day so far, is sticky.

Angie Callen [00:53:46]:
It's, uh, don't be afraid to be a little lighter. This is a serious world, and that is something to say in the year of our Lord 2026. But don't be afraid to be a little, a little lighter. And also, I'll add, I'll add a piece where the memes might come in handy, maybe. This is one of the reasons, and we will not go down this rabbit hole too far because I've got some lighter, lighter fun things to end the round. This is one of the most powerful aspects of creating content and/or engaging on LinkedIn because it gives you a way to passively stay in front of the network without having to follow up.

Diana Alt [00:54:24]:
Yes.

Angie Callen [00:54:24]:
And so if that gets you over the hump of vulnerability that, and fear of posting, it actually can be easier than having to go follow up with a bunch of people that feels awkward because you could just instead of 2 follow-ups, it could be a follow-up and a post they're seeing over a month. Right. And so it keeps you— it's, it's market— again, we're back to the marketing, marketing mindset. 8 touches. Stay top of mind. LinkedIn content and engaging is a good, a good, slightly more passive way to do that where you don't have to go directly at your, at your source.

Diana Alt [00:54:56]:
Or Facebook or TikTok or YouTube. I have people reach out to me on LinkedIn because they saw some nonsense I put on TikTok.

Angie Callen [00:55:06]:
Isn't all of TikTok nonsense? I still, I open that damn app and there are some, a video I don't want to see and I don't know how to get rid of it. So I close the app like a good old middle-aged lady that I am. All right, we're gonna have a little quick lightning round to end this day. We just talked a lot about LinkedIn. So LinkedIn, Love it or hate it, Diana?

Diana Alt [00:55:27]:
I love it. I'm long on LinkedIn. Still.

Angie Callen [00:55:31]:
Still. Oh, hold that thought. Scott?

Scott Gardner [00:55:34]:
I love it.

Angie Callen [00:55:36]:
The fact that Diana ended her statement with still is why I love to hate it and hate to love it right now. It's been a challenging place in the last 6 months. A lot has changed. However, it is still, to go back to something Scott said earlier, the best place for both coaches in our space, in the career space, and coaches of any type, really. And, uh, job seekers to build both credibility and visibility. So, uh, what is one job search rule you wished everyone followed? Scott?

Scott Gardner [00:56:08]:
Oh, one job search rule— staying organized. It doesn't have to be crazy. Open an Excel spreadsheet and copy the link to the job you applied for and then manage it from there. When did they contact you? When did you get a, a rejection email? Who contacted you? Stay organized. The reason I give this advice is that as you begin to execute a diligent and clear job search, you'll begin to build momentum, and what you'll find is you'll have 3 or 4 different interviews lined up, 3 or 4 different contacts, and it'll get a lot more busy and you won't be able to remember everything about the individual conversation or role. So centralize your information, have a dashboard to manage your job search.

Angie Callen [00:56:54]:
Be organized. That's a great rule. I love that that's, that's a rule that isn't about a rule. Like, it's not like, go do this exact thing this exact way. It's just keep your shit in order. Okay, Diana?

Scott Gardner [00:57:05]:
Pretty much.

Diana Alt [00:57:06]:
Uh, be future focused. So a lot of what people, especially as they climb up the food chain, the farther up the food chain you get, the more how you're going to shape an organization or the products you're working on or whatever going forward matters. And being able to talk to that matters. That goes in with targeting unique value proposition. And when you speak that way in an interview about how you carry somebody into the future, you look more valuable.

Angie Callen [00:57:35]:
Love it. Mine? That's humans still matter. Don't forget it. And now on that note, Let's leave everybody with a little hopeful, hopeful piece of encouragement. What is your one piece of advice for somebody out there who's really feeling discouraged by, uh, this market and everything we just confirmed about it?

Diana Alt [00:57:53]:
Diana, stop with the nonsense of finding a job as a full-time job because it's not possible, it's not sustainable, and it's the fastest path to burnout. Um, yeah, that's my thing. Just like let yourself have a life.

Angie Callen [00:58:09]:
Yes, I actually was earlier was thinking about that, like how much time should this really, really take? And that's a better way to phrase it. Finding a job doesn't need to be a full-time job, and the last thing you want to be— you want to do is get so fried to a crisp trying to get the job that you can't go do the job when you start. So give yourself some grace in, in the process. Scott, what do you have to say for the discouraged job seeker out there?

Scott Gardner [00:58:33]:
The market is competitive, it is not closed. All right, people are still hiring.

Diana Alt [00:58:38]:
Oh, that is so good.

Scott Gardner [00:58:39]:
It's, it's taking more time. People are having to be more targeted. I tell people, you know, the 4 pillars of a good job search are number 1, mindset. You have to have the right mindset going. It speaks to everything we've discussed today. Then you have to have sort of the right tactics behind you do it, how you're executing what we've discussed today. Then you have to actually have the skills that you're marketing to match those jobs. And the last is the tools.

Scott Gardner [00:59:03]:
That's the resume. That's the COVID letter. That's the LinkedIn profile.

Angie Callen [00:59:06]:
And that's where most people start. But it was last.

Scott Gardner [00:59:09]:
Yes, it's literally the last thing. So start with the mindset and then go from there.

Angie Callen [00:59:15]:
And, you know, I'll end— I'll wrap that up by saying both tactically and aspirationally, we don't talk quite enough about the mental emotional toll job searching takes, which is one of the many reasons why putting the mindset first being less reactionary and having really clear goals and being organized around them is, is the most important foundation before you ever get into all the tactics and, and all of that kind of stuff. And as, as coaches, you know, funnily enough, this is what master job search coaching is, right? It is, it is focusing on the human who is going through a job search and not just helping you find a job. And that is fundamentally different. And if you're on the job-seeking side, I encourage you to adopt that mentality and remember that you you are also a human. And, and in a way, even though it feels like we have no control, you've got more agency than you think you do. So control what you can, and it starts with your mindset. How's that for how to job search right in 2026? I have amazing friends, don't I?

Diana Alt [01:00:17]:
You do.

Angie Callen [01:00:17]:
Thank you both. This is awesome. Here's my second plug for next month, April 1st, not April 3rd. How's that for a good, uh, April Fool's joke? Mark Messiano and Karen Jackson and I will be here to talk about how to network effectively in this year. And I think we set off some— a good expectation and some good tidbits here that we will continue as more of my Job Seeker Summit coaching friends and experts join me for the Momentum Series to help all of you keep the momentum and keep hope in this job search. You will land, and the length of time it takes and the number of interviews and jobs you don't get in no way, shape, or form dictates your value and worth in the market. So don't let it. Everybody stay human on purpose.

Angie Callen [01:01:04]:
We'll see you next month for another Job Search Momentum series. Diana Ault, Scott Gardner, thank you so much. Follow them on LinkedIn if you don't already, and see you guys soon.

Diana Alt [01:01:13]:
All right. I hope that roundtable discussion gave you something to think about. If the episode hit, but you want more structured step-by-step guidance or you want to hear from some other of my guests, like other career coaches or even, you know, my regular old people that have gone through career changes and job searches, go and check out some of the other episodes on the podcast. I break down a lot of this stuff more directly, either on my own and solos or with other people. If you're in the middle of a job search right now and it feels like a mess, I want you to know you're not broken and you're not alone. The job market is weird. But there is a way to navigate it. People are doing it every day.

Diana Alt [01:01:53]:
I'll see you in the next one. Hey, are you sabotaging your job search without even realizing it? You might be. I break down the most common job search mistakes and how to fix them in my free training at jobsearchmistakes.com. So go grab it today. And that's it for this episode of Work Should Feel Good. If something made you you laugh, think, cry, or just want to yell yes at your phone, send it to a friend, hit follow, hit subscribe, do all the things. And even better, leave a review if you've got a sec. I'm not going to tell you to give it 5 stars.

Diana Alt [01:02:31]:
You get to decide if I earned them. Work should feel good. Let's make that your reality.