Diana Alt [00:00:01]:
Hey there everybody, and welcome to Work Should Feel Good, the show where your career growth meets your real life. I'm your host, Diana Alt, and today My guest Katrina McGee and I are going to discuss all things related to taking a career break without ruining your career. Katrina is a career break expert and the best and who literally wrote a book on the subject. Taking a career break for dummies. Like the real for Dummies, not some off brand. It's like Wiley's real thing. She is very official in that perspective. Her expertise on planning and executing career breaks has been featured in outlets such as Forbes, Fast Co.

Diana Alt [00:00:38]:
And NBC. Katrina helps mid career professionals design transformative breaks that lead to happiness, growth and lasting change. And also helps people navigate around unplanned breaks for caregiving and other things like that too. So welcome to the party, Katrina.

Katrina McGhee [00:00:55]:
Thanks for having me, Diana. I'm excited to be here.

Diana Alt [00:00:58]:
Like, I feel like we've known each other for a million years at this point. And I'm just gonna give a shout out to Facebook because didn't we find each other because Liz Wilcox Facebook group about email of all things.

Katrina McGhee [00:01:12]:
Well, actually, Liz Wilcox, yes. But Liz, I had like a session with her or something. We were doing like, I think I won. Yeah. And she was like, here are two people I want you to know and you're one of those two people. And so I just like straight, you know, like emailed you. I think like, Liz is like, we should be connected. Maybe she did the intro for us.

Katrina McGhee [00:01:30]:
But yeah. And it was like, wow, we have some stuff in common.

Diana Alt [00:01:33]:
Yeah. So it's funny because so often, like groups about marketing are just marketers. Marketing the marketers about marketing or whatever that is. So it's. I've really enjoyed the. All the people that I've met that are in this career space that I've met through that group have been really good. So I was LinkedIn stalking you today, which is fun because I LinkedIn stalking you when you were doing some really good LinkedIn. Great day to do it.

Diana Alt [00:02:01]:
And you started as an actuary with a BS in math. So I'm really curious, how did you get to this path where you wanted to be doing math and actuary stuff and then how did you pivot into coaching? Because those two things do not sound like they go together. I have an engineering background, so I kind of get it. You know, one of my best friends in college actually was an applied math major. But walk us through that because it does not sound like that would drive together.

Katrina McGhee [00:02:34]:
Yeah. Well, simply put, One was a very unintentional path and the other was created with intention. So the first one was actually the unintentional one. Went to Smith College, wanted to study abroad, ended up like, financially. My mom lost her job. Right. Is like I was applying for study abroad, so I couldn't go abroad, but I could go on a domestic exchange because financial aid would transfer. So I decided to go to Howard University, where my sister went all five years to become a pa.

Katrina McGhee [00:03:02]:
Anyway, on that journey, I had to declare a major. And math was the thing that interested me the most. I had the most credits. And I was like, well, I guess this just makes sense to be a math major. So I just sort of picked it so I could go. So I could go to Howard and then, you know, double down, finish the major, of course. But I got recruited to be an actuary. I actually did not know what an actuary was.

Katrina McGhee [00:03:26]:
Found me. Yeah, this is back in like 2000, 2001. A recruiter found me online at like headhunter.net or something and was like, hey, would you want to be an actuary?

Diana Alt [00:03:37]:
What is that?

Katrina McGhee [00:03:37]:
So we did like a call and I was like, it sounds okay. Interviewed, got the job. I really enjoyed being an actuary for a hot second. I learned way more than I ever needed to about Excel, but it really activated a part of my brain. And I'm a really extroverted introvert. And so being amongst my fellow actuaries, I was like the sparkly loud one, you know, amongst the group. And I loved it. But it also did never felt like home.

Katrina McGhee [00:04:02]:
It was like I was always there sort of temporarily in my mind, but I didn't know how to leave a great job with great job security and an amazing paycheck. So I decided to go to business school because that seemed like a good trade off. I'll change my life, but I'll maintain my income. So I did that, went to unc, graduated two years later, went into General General Mills as a market researcher, consumer insights person, and pretty quickly realized I was really burnt out and I was not living at all the life I wanted. And instead of getting closer to the life I wanted, I was further away. And that's when.

Diana Alt [00:04:36]:
Isn't that a pitch to learn Master's degree, right?

Katrina McGhee [00:04:41]:
And all the debt and everything. And you're like, I wish I could have learned this sooner. Yeah. But then the whole chain of events unfolded that led me to save $40,000 in 18 months, quit my job, I gave them 8 months notice and travel around the world for 20 months until I went broke. And then I came back and landed five job offers in five weeks, which planted the seed for me to be doing the work I do today. That was the moment. It crystallized that not only was this break amazing, life changing, life saving, but it actually paved the way for an even better career sort of trajectory once the break was over because I had been so incredibly intentional with how to spend that time. And then I got certified as a life coach.

Katrina McGhee [00:05:22]:
Once I went back to, I did take a corporate job coming out of the break to pay off the last of my debt, paid off all my debt from business school in less than two years, got certified as a life coach. And so for the last eight and a half years, I've been coaching people on all kinds of things, but largely on how to take a break and to do it successfully.

Diana Alt [00:05:39]:
I love that. And I think that it's so interesting, the unintentionality at the beginning of careers because the most expensive thing that we do usually in terms of money is buy house or buy college education. And so we're unintentional about the college education. And it's also weirdly easy to buy a house. Like if your income can support the mortgage. It doesn't feel like you should be able to sign that few pieces of paper and end up with a house. It's strange. So I love the story though.

Diana Alt [00:06:14]:
I went to an engineering school and got, I have a degree in chemistry and a master's degree in engineering management and I had a lot of that. You're good at math and science and this should make money. So go and do that.

Katrina McGhee [00:06:27]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:06:28]:
But then when I was on campus, I always felt like I was the most right brain person on this left brain campus. My dad used to say I majored in extracurricular activities, but they messed up and wrote chemistry on my diploma, stuff like that.

Katrina McGhee [00:06:42]:
So relate to that.

Diana Alt [00:06:45]:
Yeah. So I, you know, people when they ask me, how did you get started coaching? I'm like, I don't know if I've ever not coached in my whole life, or at least since like high school. So this origin story, you, you decided you did this 20 month break, which is a long one. Like most of the time when I hear people talking about a break, they're like, I wish I had three months off. I wish I had six months off. Did you know that you were going to do 20 months when you started? How long were you planning on?

Katrina McGhee [00:07:15]:
Yeah, I was planning on 12 and I budgeted for 12. Like when I saved that $40,000. It was because I had done all the math with my spreadsheets, right? And I was like, I need 38,000 DOL dollars to take a 12 month break the way that I want to take a 12 month break. And so what happened was I went on my break and it was, you know, a really amazing experience. But four months in, I was like, I'm doing pretty good with the spending thing. And then eight months in, I was like, holy crap, I still have like half of my money left. And so at that point, around, yeah, around eight months, I was like, okay, I'm just gonna ride this train until I run out of money. And for me, running out of money meant having about 5k left in the bank because I knew I would need things like, you know, first month's rent and a security deposit and like, you know, I'd sold all my stuff, so, like, I might have to buy a mattress and like, bed frame.

Katrina McGhee [00:08:06]:
And so I was like, at the time, I was like, okay, that will get me started if I land a job. Whatever, Whatever. So, yeah, it was 20 months, but originally 12.

Diana Alt [00:08:14]:
That's so exciting. I'm so glad you did that. How old were you when you did that?

Katrina McGhee [00:08:18]:
Yeah, I was 32, I think 33 when I started the break, so.

Diana Alt [00:08:24]:
Which is exactly the time, like most people, if they think about going and traveling for a year plus, they think you're doing it when you're in your, like, early to mid-20s or when you're like 50 because you figured out how to retire early or like, something like that. So that's very interesting. So for you, I want to dig into a topic. You. You sent a beautiful list of questions that is inspiring this conversation. And one of my favorite ones is how did you know that you needed a break? And how do people identify that in themselves?

Katrina McGhee [00:09:00]:
Yeah, I like to simplify it to the three Bs. I think it's really helpful to have this lens. The sort of, like, nuanced answer for me is that I felt in my spirit, the sense of massive misalignment and. And also pervasive burnout. And I just was crispy toast. Like, I had nothing to give. And I really felt like I was trying to projectile throw myself through life every day. Like hurling myself into the car to drive to work, like, hurling myself into the office, down into my seat.

Katrina McGhee [00:09:29]:
Like, it just took so much energy to show up for, like every little moment of the day other than, like coming home and watching TV or something like that. So the three Bs, burnout betrayal and Blossom. I actually had a mix of all three. It's totally normal. If you recognize yourself in, like, two or three of these, think of them like a Venn diagram, but essentially, burnout. You're beyond capacity, right? That might be mental burnout, physical burnout, emotional burnout, but whatever you've had to give, you've got no more to give. And it's like literal. Literal fumes going on.

Katrina McGhee [00:10:01]:
And so being at capacity, right, that need to take a break and to just pause and collect yourself and heal as well. I was also in an emotional state of burnout. You know, having lost my brother right before my break started. It just sort of amplified this feeling of, like, I've got the capacity for nothing now. Second one, betrayal. That misalignment, that sense of I am not where I'm supposed to be or this life does not feel as good as I thought that it would and as I thought that it should feel. And something is telling me that this is not in alignment with who I am or what I value, but I don't maybe know how to leave, right? And so it's about creating that space to find alignment and get back on the right path, I. E.

Katrina McGhee [00:10:45]:
Your true path. And then for Blossom, that's about what you want to move towards, right? It's less about needing to get away from things, which is totally acceptable, but it's about wanting to pour into other facets of your life. If you think about the wheel of life and all the other. The things that, like, are worthy, right? Friends, relationships, community, leisure, fun, learning all the stuff, it's about pouring into those and maybe fulfilling a dream for me. I had wanted to travel around the world for some of my clients. You know, one of my clients hiked the Camino with his son who was graduating from high school. That was like, a really big moment he wanted to have with them. They can be small moments, big moments, things you want to learn, but it's essentially like wanting to pour that energy and time into another aspect of your life outside of, like, the worry of making money and the grind of your job.

Diana Alt [00:11:32]:
Yeah. Did you know, a couple things come up. I love that little model 3B's, 2F. Two things I find really interesting are, number one, on the betrayal you described, self betrayal. Because what so many people like, when the word betrayal comes up, you almost like, at least for me, and I know probably for others, you automatically go to who betrayed you? Like, oh, was it your work? You know, did. Did your spouse cheat on you? Like, all of that kind of Stuff, and I'm sure there's people that have that. But you described that you were basically every day that you got up, got coffee, suffered through the commute into your job, that you were betraying yourself. How long did it take you to realize that, that that's what you were doing?

Katrina McGhee [00:12:25]:
Oh, my goodness. I mean, I knew that for a really long time, Diana. Like, there's a difference between knowing and, like, letting yourself know.

Diana Alt [00:12:34]:
In my spirit Word from the amazing book by Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land. Grok, when did you, like, fully get it?

Katrina McGhee [00:12:44]:
When did I fully. It crystallized for me about eight months into my second career because I had invested so much time and so much money and I thought, this is going to make me happier. And when I realized that the bureaucracy and the politics of this really big company were even worse than like my medium sized company in my actuarial life, I was like, holy crap, what have I done? I hate this even more. It just felt so not right. And I think that's the moment where it became so painful. I couldn't ignore it because I think the thing that happens is like, if it's uncomfortable but not excruciating, it's an uncomfortable truth. You just push it down and push it down. But it became so painful that it like screamed at me, you will pay attention to me.

Katrina McGhee [00:13:29]:
You will hear me now. And I was like, oh, my God. And that's when I got a Life coach in 2011, because I was like, I don't know how to fix the rift that I am feeling between the life I'm living and the life I want. And I don't even know what I want. I just know it's not this.

Diana Alt [00:13:44]:
Yes, I. And I think the breaks are really important because I run across a lot of people that are working on some sort of career pivot or a job search right now. In the job search, it's more frequently tied to they got a layoff and they need help finding a new one because they want to eat and live indoors. In years past, when the market was better, it was, I want to get out of this bad place so I can go somewhere else. And I hear all the time a couple of things. Number one, the whole, I don't know what I want, but it's not this. Another pervasive thing I heard a lot was, is this all like. Is this all there is like, I'm 40.

Diana Alt [00:14:24]:
I went and got this degree that I'm still paying off. I have 2.3 children and a dog named Spot. And I'm supposed to be happy and is this all there is? And in, in my world, like, I've sometimes had people take breaks and now I know to send them to you so they can plan them. But a lot of times you have to pause. Like, the thing of you have to delete so that you can figure out what to add is a very real thing, whether you're just trying to pivot without a break or to take a break. So the Blossom thing, did you know when you started your break very much about how you wanted to blossom? Or was that something you figured out during your break?

Katrina McGhee [00:15:10]:
Yeah, I knew. Like, for me, I think the pain of the misalignment, the betrayal and the burnout were turning it up to like level nine. And I think the level 10 that just took it that extra step was this burning desire to see the world. Like, I had this one day list. One day I want to go see Angkor Wat. One day I want to go to a beach in Thailand. One day I want to go down to Argentina and live like a local. Like, my list just got longer and longer and there was no humanly possible way to get through it all in the, you know, 15 PTO days I was going to be granted every year.

Katrina McGhee [00:15:44]:
And I was just doing the math of my life and saying, I'm going to die with a lot of missed out opportunities, regrets. Right. And so it was like for me, Blossom was sort of the light that kept me going because the pain was awful. But maybe there were other things. Like, maybe I could have gone to a therapist, maybe I could have just taken a time out, but really giving myself permission to make it a break and to celebrate it. I credit the Blossom aspect with that because I was so excited about the things I was trying to create in my life and the things I wanted to do. And that around the world trip was one of them. And a three month road trip through the US to visit friends and see places in the country I'd never seen before was another big one for me as well.

Katrina McGhee [00:16:24]:
And so I, you know, I kind of credit those all coming together. But Blossom was like, in my mind, that was like, what was keeping me going. Like when I'm saving all this money because I'm like, imagine how amazing it's going to feel to be on the other side of the world and not have to rush back to check my inbox while I'm on vacation, not have.

Diana Alt [00:16:39]:
To log in the Microsoft Teams.

Katrina McGhee [00:16:44]:
I can imagine teams didn't exist then, but I can imagine I would Definitely feel that burn.

Diana Alt [00:16:47]:
I think we were on Skype then. Yeah, if I'm right, I'm trying to like, take my brain back to that timeframe. A couple other things that I think are important in that. Number one is that permission to figure out what the next step is is really important, especially for a lot of my clients are in tech fields and they have that incredibly analytical bent that you know from your life as an actuary. And so understanding that you need to know that there's more and give yourself permission to do it. You don't have to start the break knowing already what you want to develop into. If you were able to do that, you'd be doing it right. So that's really.

Katrina McGhee [00:17:29]:
Yeah, I think we have a very hard time letting things unfold and being in the discovery of life, I feel like especially analytical, all of us, but I think the analytical people, especially like myself included, it's like, tell me the plan. What is the plan? I need to work out how I get there so that I can like, work the plan. Don't like, don't give me uncertainty. And I think a break is very personal. And so you can never say what exactly you're going to learn. You can never say exactly like how it's going to unfold. You have to be willing to be in the discovery of it and to meet each moment as you evolve as a person. Because that's the other thing.

Katrina McGhee [00:18:03]:
If you do a break right, you are changing leaps and bounds beyond the person that had the life that you didn't want. Because, spoiler alert, even if your job sucks, the people in your life suck. And like, things just suck in general. But part of how you ended up there is you. And so figuring out where your part in that is, you know, requires some, some self identity work. And like, if you're willing to do that on a break, it can change your whole life. So that life post break looks nothing like your life pre break.

Diana Alt [00:18:28]:
Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot because I had surgery in August and it was something I knew for months I was going to have. And I knew that I wanted to feel different after. And I didn't just mean like physical, like the crap that I had to have surgery for. I had to have a pituitary tumor remove. So it's literal a fucking brain surgery that I had to have. And I. If you look at my calendar and what's going on since I came back to work a few weeks ago, it looks very similar to before, which there's some things I want to add and change. Like, I'm still getting.

Diana Alt [00:19:06]:
I'm still recovering to a certain degree, but the energy I'm bringing into it is completely different because I read some interesting books while I was out and I, like, learned some tools and things like that just so I can bring energy that is more. Are we having fun with this? How are we. How are we doing this? How are we pushing forward, enjoying it? And less like, oh, my gosh, I feel like shit all the time and it all feels like a slog. And for me, when I'm working with people, there's two things that I deal with. I'm curious whether you face these two with your clients. Number one is when I'm dealing with a lot of people making any sort of change, I have to caution these talented, intelligent people against running away from what they don't want without having any idea of what they do want. Even if all that word is is peace for right now, if they just say, I want peace, that's fine, but that's one thing. And then the, the other aspect of it is, well, actually, let's just talk about that because I kind of lost myself in the middle of my own thought.

Diana Alt [00:20:13]:
But do you deal with that whole people, like, trying to redirect people from just simply talking about what they want to leave? Is that part of your model? Is that where the blossom comes in or how do you deal with that?

Katrina McGhee [00:20:29]:
Yeah, I love this question. So I leave space for people to just know they want to leave. I kind of think of it like a toxic relationship. Like, I'm not gonna make you tell me who your ideal partner is. If you are in this relationship feeling like all you know in your body is that there's like a massive need for you to leave. Because sometimes people come to me and they're in a, like, true pain. Like, maybe the burnout is extensive, the work environment is really toxic, or just the stories that they've carried in their head since maybe they were teenagers about who they are and how productive and. And like amazing and excellent they have to be.

Katrina McGhee [00:21:04]:
But for people that are in pain, like, I'm like, good, if you know you need to leave, we'll start there. But. But right. We have to articulate why you need to leave. Like, I need them to be clear about why they need to leave. So, like, we'll always start with a purpose statement. And I do like to start with, you know, an anchor it to your point to something forward thinking. So we'll get there.

Katrina McGhee [00:21:24]:
But, like, it's okay. For me to start with, like, all you know is you want to articulate.

Diana Alt [00:21:30]:
Like as you're talking, like there's some differences. And I've watched this shift a little bit of myself as I have more people that are either on a voluntary or an involuntary break. The thing that I'm trying to avoid is so when I first started really getting passionate about this aspect of coaching, it was about, this was early in my coaching business and it was, I don't know, like 2014, something like that. I don't even know if I was charging people yet. I was just helping people. And what I saw is I worked with a lot of people that were software engineers, cybersecurity, like these high demand tech skills. I'm in the Kansas City area, which has a bigger tech scene than people realize. You could wake up on Monday morning, decide that your job sucked and you wanted out.

Diana Alt [00:22:16]:
And by Friday you could have another job doing approximately what you did for 10 to 15% more on contract. And if you wanted a W2 full time, you just needed like two or three weeks more in the process. So I watched a lot of people that I knew have the pattern of jumping. I escaped this and I landed here fast. And then that also sucked and then I escaped. So I was dealing with patterns of people who had done that two and three times for a while when I first started coaching. That's what I'm trying to have people.

Katrina McGhee [00:22:48]:
Yeah, that makes so much sense. Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I think there's a nuance too, because it's not scary to find a new job, but it's, it's scary for a lot of people to forego your salary and have to explain to people that you're on a break. So I feel like a lot of the people that come to me for the shift, it's, it's not that they're like, they're not trying to distract themselves with the easy thing. Like the idea of taking a break is the hard thing. So it's kind of like it's already taken a moment of self reflection and awareness to say like, I'm gonna do this scary thing and sit in this absence of income and a job and a title to tell people for what I'm doing versus I'll just go get another high paying job and pretend that like all the problems are circumstance, everything's nice. Circumstance will make it good. Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:23:31]:
Yeah. So let's talk about this then because this may have changed, right? The, the market dynamics have changed a lot, especially in white collar Corporate jobs, which often are the people that can even contemplate taking a break. What kind of shifts have you seen in the last two, two and a half years as people have been hugging? They call it job hugging now. This is a new term that I hear. We were great resignation in like 2021 and now people are hugging jobs. But have you seen a change in the dynamics or thought processes of people or the way that they're approaching this as the job market's been more difficult?

Katrina McGhee [00:24:13]:
Yeah. Yes. But I also admit that I am a biased subset of people because people only talk to me if they want to quit. Right. So, like, they have to be. If they're hugging, they're like loosely hugging. Like, I don't really want to be hugging you anymore. But I will say, actually I have more people reaching out to me now than in the past.

Katrina McGhee [00:24:32]:
And I think part of that is because it feels like the workplace in some ways has become more demanding and more toxic for a lot of people in the midst of all of this transition. And I think basically like they're just. They've been. They've been white knuckling it through, you know, through the last several years, sort of feeling like they don't have options and you just hit a break point.

Diana Alt [00:24:52]:
Yeah.

Katrina McGhee [00:24:53]:
But what I will say as far as like shifts is, you know, it's all different levels. Like, we're Talking C suite VPs people, you know, like marketing directors, like associates, like just the whole spectrum. Lots of people are feeling it. But I think what's true about people in today's world is when they're being really intentional about the break, it. It's like they're sort of inherently mixing in space to upskill network and think about what comes next. So it's almost like the break has become like one of the maybe selling points that wasn't so major before has become more major is the space to actually plant seeds for what you want instead of feeling like you're in a state of desperation having to find something asap. And so a lot of people that are coming on a break want to change and they're using their break in a way to like, give them a more spacious sort of on ramp into their new chapter or the next version of their life.

Diana Alt [00:25:48]:
I love that because people come to me like, this is. This is a knitting ready. This is like the gold why people definitely will want to listen to this episode. And it's that inevitable question of how the hell do I talk about this? Whenever I've taken three or six Or a year, however long. What's the average break that people are designing for when they're doing an intentional break?

Katrina McGhee [00:26:11]:
Yeah, if they're doing an intentional break and they're doing a career break, meaning that they're quitting their job, the average is between 6 to 12 months. My client average is about 11 months. But the average, broadly speaking, is usually 6 to 12 months. Most people fall into that bucket.

Diana Alt [00:26:25]:
So when they're doing that, how the, the inevitable question before you people have, before they can even start sometimes is how do I talk about this? So what do you tell people whenever their break is intentional? And then I know you've also worked with people that are trying to re enter after an unintentional break, like a caregiving type of break or something like that. Talk about that aspect of it. Because that's, that scares some people enough that they won't even interview for jobs like, why are you leaving acme? They won't even apply for the job at XYZ because they don't want to talk about why they're leaving acne. And it's so much worse for many people when they're talking about, oh, by the way, I'm going to quit for a year.

Katrina McGhee [00:27:10]:
Yeah, it's actually a really big point of contention for a lot of people I talk to. And I oftentimes when I do coaching packages, like there's a whole session dedicated to how do I give my notice and how do I frame this so that I can talk about it for that very reason. Right. Because if you're a high achiever, it used to be an easy pass to say, you know, I'm a lawyer, I'm a marketing director, I do this, I do that. And like people just understood what it was and we're like, oh, neat, like awesome. You're great. This is what I have to say. Like, it matters what you say, but it's not the specifics, it is the general understanding and clarity that you have and the energy that you bring.

Katrina McGhee [00:27:45]:
So when I say that, what I mean is this. No matter where you start, if you're considering a break and you're really afraid and you're like, I don't know if I should take one all the way through. The person who is re entering from a break that was maybe unintentional, maybe it was involuntary, or maybe it was something like caregiving where it was like, I'm glad I could do it, but it wasn't this huge self development, like joyful vacation that like other people are having from A to Z. No matter where you start, when you come to me, we will always retroactively or prospectively develop your purpose statement. I need you to articulate why this break was important, what it was about. Give it a banner, give it a headline. This is important for you to see how it was valuable. If you aren't at the end of your break, it's also important to pre.

Katrina McGhee [00:28:29]:
It predefines what success is so that you can design your whole break or the rest of your break in a way that's going to fulfill that purpose. But if you've made it to the end, like, it has had some purpose and you need to be so clear on what it is. So that's number one. And number two is I like to think of the purpose, sort of banner being held up by three to four themes or pillars. So these are, you know, the themes of what your break was about. Like, sort of the essence. It might be learning, it might be adventure, it might be caregiving. It might be, you know, it might be recovery or healing.

Katrina McGhee [00:28:59]:
Like, whatever your themes are, there's no good or bad, right or wrong. You want to think about what those are. When you have these two foundational pieces of data, even if it's retroactively putting them together, it gives you a framework. So I'll just give you a really quick example of how I would talk about my break, right? So if my purpose was I'm secretly, I'm really burnt out and I freaking don't love my life, and I just want to be happy. The purpose I might create or craft might sound something like, I decided to take radical leadership over my life and really redesign the life that I wanted. Because I am a person who likes to be excited about my life. And I recognized I was not excited. So I took my power back and I created space to get excited about life.

Katrina McGhee [00:29:42]:
And then when you think about the themes, how did I do that? I focused on connection. I spent time with people I love. Like, I built community with new, interesting people. I had adventure. I had this sense of, like, freedom and excitement. And I expose myself to new things. I all the time so I could get back in that energy of excitement. And maybe your third one is, you know, next chapter or Katrina 4.0.

Katrina McGhee [00:30:04]:
Like, I just reimagined the life and lifestyle and the mission of, like, what I'm doing with this, like, second half of my life. Well, that's really compelling. And even if I'm saying this at the beginning of my break, and I think that's what it's going to be about. I don't have to give people an itinerary. I don't have to be like, I'm going to Thailand and then I'm going to do this and I'm going to read this book and then I'm going to listen to this podcast and I'm going to walk every day for two miles. Like, the details don't matter. People get what that's about. Right.

Katrina McGhee [00:30:30]:
And it's going to evolve how you fill up that time as you go through your break. But I think at its essence, when you are clear, you can be confident. And when you are clear, you have an energy that says, I know why I took it. I can tell you the essence of why I took it. And my energy is going to be confident in that decision. And you're going to be like, well, dang, that's kind of awesome. I like it. That sounds really powerful.

Diana Alt [00:30:52]:
And then you take that and you connect it. Because whenever you're doing your next thing, whether you're starting a business or going back in the workforce, you say, I'm targeting this and here's why. And oh, by the way, that is how what I did for the last 6 12, however many months connects to the value I'm going to bring into the new role. Right. That's how I look.

Katrina McGhee [00:31:15]:
Yeah, exactly. You basically tee yourself up. So if you're doing this work right at the end of your break, or if you did it at the beginning and you're revisiting it at the end of your break to get ready for interviews and reentry, Absolutely right. Because you're basically saying, so I did the work, I got clear on what I wanted. I got excited about life again. I have the same expertise, experience, education and network. But like, I have evaluated my options and I'm really excited about what you're doing here at XYZ company And I am so excited to be a part of this. And when I say that, it's like all the benefit of my break is now being channeled into your organization.

Katrina McGhee [00:31:49]:
And so you absolutely connect the dots, which is what I did to land my dream job. Right. Those five job offers in five weeks, it was because I could articulate how my break benefited me and therefore how I was going to benefit the organization, how the organization was going to benefit from my break. So I'm highlighting it as an asset, not hiding it as a detractor.

Diana Alt [00:32:09]:
That is key. Like half the reason breaks or job, you know, like short term tenure in a job or things like that are unattractive in someone's background is because the person themselves decided that they were unattractive. They're listening to stories that other people said, no one's gonna work. No one's gonna want this. One of the interesting things that I've worked with is someone. I've worked with a couple people that have done this, but one in particular stands out. He was an L and D expert working in corporate large teams, large initiatives, decided he wanted to do consulting, did that for several years, and then decided he wanted to go back in house. And talking about that was very interesting because so many people in that position buy into this myth that no one is ever going to want to hire you again.

Diana Alt [00:33:03]:
If you have had a stint as an entrepreneur, it's like, well, if you're going to be obstinate and think you have to be in charge of every decision and fly solo, no, they're not going to want to. People like me joke that we're unemployable. I don't know if you joke that you're unemployable too.

Katrina McGhee [00:33:18]:
Yeah, same. But I don't even know if it's a joke.

Diana Alt [00:33:22]:
I'm just like, you know, you know what, though? If I had to, I could turn myself into employable real quick. So my social media footprint might not support that as well. But. But for me, I know, like, I know how to play the game. I played it for 20 years. Now I'm playing a different game. If I had to change games again, I could. So.

Diana Alt [00:33:42]:
But that's one of the. The lies that people tell themselves about entrepreneurship. So let's talk about reentry for a minute. So first thing I want to hear is, what did you identify as your kind of dream field that you went and pursued and got all these great offers? Like, tell a little bit about that, and then I'd love to also have you share what you mean by reentry, because it sounds easy, Go get a new job or start a business, but we all know that there's 40 million steps in those, so I'd love to see how you view the reentry phase.

Katrina McGhee [00:34:17]:
Yeah, so my reentry was honestly, like, messy. And I. I very highly advocate for people. Like, if you're my client, I'm gonna make you do this. You're gonna have to proactively set aside time for re entry. So we're talking money and time in the timeline to be in the re entry phase because no one wants you to come in hot, feeling desperate, anxious, panicked, unclear. Right. You need time to solidify the benefits of what your break was.

Katrina McGhee [00:34:43]:
You need to have time to reflect and say, how am I different? What parts of this break am I carrying forward in a different way into my next chapter so that I don't lose these benefits? And like, who am I and what do I want now? What's important to me? And I think a lot of people just, they're like, oh my God, my break is over. I'm running out of money, I've got to get a job. Like, I'll take anything. Like, oh my gosh, my break is so bad. Like, please don't look over here and see the gap on my resume. And like, you can really own the story and come with so much more confidence and clarity, which is what I did by having a re entry period.

Diana Alt [00:35:09]:
So.

Katrina McGhee [00:35:09]:
But for me, mine was messy. That's another reason you're going to have a lot of feelings.

Diana Alt [00:35:12]:
How long do you recommend? So you had messy and we're going to hear about that. But if, if I'm, if my goal is to take off about a year.

Katrina McGhee [00:35:19]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:35:20]:
How long do you recommend someone set aside for synthesizing for reentry? And I'm not talking about like, because a job search can take a long time and you don't have control over that, but you do have control over at what point you decide. I'm switching phases.

Katrina McGhee [00:35:36]:
Yeah. So re entry. I like to think about it like a one for six rule. So roughly speaking, a minimum of one week for every six weeks that you're on a break. So a six month break would be about a month of reentry. A year break would be about two. That's a minimum. Right.

Katrina McGhee [00:35:51]:
I think a month is great as a minimum floor for like anyone, but like, I would say one to two months. Right. If you're in it for, for a year, two months would be great. More is wonderful too. But that's what I would like say roughly. But I think of re entry as you're ready to shift your energy into moving forward with what comes next. Whether that's really like investing all of your time into your business because maybe you were dabbling in starting it up, you know, throughout your break or like getting your job search materials together, like networking, interviewing. If you are looking to pivot, which a lot of people are that I work with that are taking breaks, like they want something different.

Katrina McGhee [00:36:27]:
They're not sure how different, but something different. One of your themes is probably going to be around this pivot. It might be exploring new paths, it might Be just re imagining your lifestyle. And it's more about like, I need to design my life around me and not work. But whatever your version of that is, it's going to be one of your themes. That means it's going to be incorporated much sooner into your break. Right? It gets a whole theme. It's not just relegated to reentry.

Katrina McGhee [00:36:49]:
But if you're not pivoting and pivoting in some version is not part of your themes, then basically you want to think about that. Reentry period is just going back to what you know, polishing things up, doing the deep reflective work to get clear on what the benefits were and to craft the narrative. So that's how I think about it in general. And that's the rule of thumb for time. As far as, like, for mine, though, it was really messy. And that's another thing. You have to process all the feelings because some people like myself, don't really want to go back to work. Like, I was having a really amazing time living life as a free person, just doing what I wanted.

Katrina McGhee [00:37:22]:
And I was like, man, this sucks to have to go back to work. Some of my clients feel pulled out of a break. Like they either find an opportunity to get contacted by a recruiter or they just feel excited to go contribute and they're really ready to get back to work. I was not that person. So mine wasn't messy sort of up and down. But I got clear on what my new big purpose was. My previous big purpose was take this break. My new big purpose was I want to pay off all of my debt so that I can become a entrepreneur or whatever I want to do.

Katrina McGhee [00:37:50]:
But that was my version of financial independence that would allow me the ability to do any work thing I wanted to do without a need for like, a certain level of income because of, like, making those monthly payments I had paid off my car. You know, like, my house had a tenant in it. Like, I didn't have a lot of expenses, but those 700, 800amonth student loans were a big deal. And so all that to say for me, that was actually my biggest motivator. So when I started applying for jobs, I was like, okay, I'm going to look at corporate because that's how I know how to make money fast. And my new big goal is actually not getting a job. It's getting financial freedom. And the job is how I'm going to do it.

Katrina McGhee [00:38:29]:
So any job I apply to has to resonate with me in some meaningful way where I genuinely get excited about it for any reason, there's no judgment on the reason, but for at least one reason. And so that's where I started. So the dream job was in an industry I loved. It was my old career, but in a. In an industry. In the natural inorganic food space at Expo west and east, the company that ran that. And it was like a dream because I'm a whole food shopper. I was a co op member.

Katrina McGhee [00:38:56]:
Like, I love those products. And so working with them every day and people that want to support them was like a dream. But I also had an interview and an offer to be a Delta flight attendant. I had an offer to work for a spice company. And you know, that job was a 30% pay raise and a promotion coming out of my break. And I was really excited about the location and the idea of like spices because I love food, blah, blah, blah, and traveling around the world, right. So I just found something that genuinely connected for me. But.

Katrina McGhee [00:39:23]:
But all of it was different for each company because the banner for me was like, I want to pay off this debt ASAP so that I can do whatever I want once the debt is paid off.

Diana Alt [00:39:32]:
I love that. And it brings up a very interesting component that is the internal narrative versus the external narrative because I spend a lot of my time, and clearly you do too, on helping people with what is the narrative. And so most of the time, if I'm working with someone that is looking for a job, what they are trying to do is figure out how to take the mishmash of the 10 or 15 or 25 years and turn it into a credible story arc, you know, and that's not always easy for people. But I have a kind of an interesting ability to look and see. Oh yeah, that goes together. I can make that go together. But what you're talking about is really important to call out because you can have an internal narrative that is around financial freedom and someday I want to be an entrepreneur. And you can have an external narrative that is around something that is not that.

Diana Alt [00:40:31]:
Because I don't think very many employers. There are some, but there's not a lot of employers you could walk into after a 20 month break and say, by the way, my goal is to quit as soon as I can have the money to quit. Because that's kind of what you were trying to do. It is not lying. It is not a problem. If you have internal reasons and external reasons, you need to know which is which and when to tell them. And if you care about integrity, like don't totally lie. Like somebody doesn't need to know that you don't plan to work in a corporation until you're 60, 65 years old.

Diana Alt [00:41:11]:
But you also don't necessarily want to tell them. I think I can budget out to be out of here in 30 months or however long that is. Like you just need to go and talk about. This is the value I bring. My career break helped me hone that value and I want to come here and do this great thing for you. And that's all true.

Katrina McGhee [00:41:31]:
Yeah, it was true. I was very excited for each of the opportunities. Like I was only interviewing for companies I was excited for. There was a recruiter that kept putting a couple of jobs in front of me that paid well and I was like, nope, soul sucking. Not even talking to them. Don't care, don't care, don't care. So it was genuine. And you know, also, yeah, there are certain truths I held for myself.

Katrina McGhee [00:41:51]:
But like let's be real, I mean the company can't even guarantee that you're going to be employed with them a year later. So like I don't even, I feel like everybody knows the game.

Diana Alt [00:42:00]:
Yeah, it's kind of like rabbit trail. I work with a lot of people that are, you know, most of my clients are somewhere between like late 30s and early 50s. It's like that 15 year sweet spot in the middle where most of us are making the most money. And every once in a while the people on that upper end are like, I just, I only want to look for job one more time. And my, my reaction at least internally is usually oh you sweet summer child. Because you can't know that. So I usually tell people, look at a two to three year horizon. If you can't imagine that you would work somewhere for two to three years and you don't have to go back to work because of eating and living indoors, then you might want to look further.

Diana Alt [00:42:43]:
So what are the biggest mistakes people make when planning a break?

Katrina McGhee [00:42:49]:
Oh, there, there are a fair amount, I would say biggest not being intentional. If you don't predefine what success is, you are going to have a very, very hard time being comfortable giving yourself permission to rest and not early exiting or punishing yourself and beating yourself up for being air quotes lazy when you're on a break. So high achievers are especially prone to this. Again, it comes down to that foundation, that purpose statement and themes. Not only do they give you structure which is helpful to know how to orient and what things to focus on to fulfill like the definition of success for your break, but it also gives you enough structure to give you permission. So, like, people really struggle. Like, you're burnt out now and your battery is at 2% and you're like, all I want is a rest. I could rest for three months, it would be so amazing.

Katrina McGhee [00:43:39]:
And then you get six weeks in and your battery is at 50%, which is the highest it's been probably in two decades, 10 years.

Diana Alt [00:43:46]:
Yeah, yeah.

Katrina McGhee [00:43:47]:
And you're like, well, I feel way better. I mean, I could rest more, but I think I should stop resting. I don't want to be lazy. I should be doing stuff. Oh my gosh. I'm going to try to find a job when this is over. What do I have to show for it? I don't even know. I'll go travel.

Katrina McGhee [00:44:02]:
No, I won't travel. I'll do this course. I'll start a business, right? And it's just like all the things and it's like if you know that rest is a theme and then you're figuring out what fulfilling that theme actually looks like, you know you're at 50%, but your goal was to get to 90 or 100. And so you might start phasing in other themes like exploring or learning or connection, but you're not tricking yourself into thinking like, rest isn't important anymore and you're facing demons about being worthy even when you're not being air quotes, productive and really like the struggle that we all have with deep rest and so things like that. So those are some really big mistakes. And I would also say not planning a reentry coming in sort of like frantic, like we talked about. That's another big mistake, and one that I see people make when they're starting their break is not giving themselves time to fully decompress and disconnect. One of the biggest sort of like no no's is scrolling that LinkedIn right as you're starting your break, you delete LinkedIn.

Diana Alt [00:45:00]:
If you're going on a career break, delete it from everything for at least two months.

Katrina McGhee [00:45:05]:
Yeah, for at least two months. I mean, longer would be great, but at least two months. And here's why people are so afraid they're going to lose touch or become irrelevant. But that thread, staying connected to LinkedIn a people are going to be celebrating jobs and you're going to start to have envy and feel like you're falling behind and maybe you should have been getting a new job and now you've been on this break. But the other thing is everyone's going to also doom and Gloom on the fact that air quotes. No one's getting hired. Like I have clients getting hired. Every week there's a client, I'm celebrating finding a job.

Katrina McGhee [00:45:34]:
But if you're just scrolling and everyone's like, I hate it here, I can't find any work, it's so hard. Like you're gonna panic and so you're not even gonna enjoy the break and you're not even gonna get the rest or the joy, which was the whole point. So you're gonna just like agonize yourself through the break, feeling guilty, feeling bad, worrying about the future and it just completely defeats the purpose of you being on a break. So fully disconnecting is important and I see people make the mistake of not giving themselves that time to really decompress and disconnect.

Diana Alt [00:46:02]:
Yeah. And just for clarification, like, yes, delete LinkedIn guys, but also delete all the sub niche job sites. Delete, you know, if you go on substack, mostly for career related content, delete substack. If you go on Facebook for groups that are related but you want to stay on Facebook to be on your, you know, with your friends or whatever, unfollow stuff, like clean yourself out for a while of all of that stuff. And I gotta tell you, like, I'm a career coach and I watch people make the ranty LinkedIn. I can't find anything. And I look at it and I'm like, well, it's perfectly obvious why you're having trouble. You're having trouble because number one, you go whine on LinkedIn and you bitch that all recruiters are terrible.

Diana Alt [00:46:49]:
Like that's not going to help you. But also you're using the tactics that are not strategic. So and that's kind of where like my job search strategist thing picks up. Talk to me about when people end up involved in the lengthy, like could be 18, two months, two years plus caregiving breaks and then they're trying to reenter. Because I think those are kind of a special category. And yes, you want to speak to that with confidence, but especially if you ended up really absorbed in those activities, there's not the opportunity to go. It's not like you're like, well, I'm going to take care of my mother in law, but also I'm going to figure out everything about AI and become an AI expert while I'm doing that. Yeah, sometimes there's support in place that people can make strides on brushing up or re skilling.

Diana Alt [00:47:45]:
Other times there's not. This feels like the Ickiest one. Like, I get intimidated sometimes if a job seeker that's been out for that long comes to me wanting help because it's such a difficult thing. How do you work with people on that?

Katrina McGhee [00:48:03]:
Yeah, I mean, I honestly don't work with a lot of people on this. I have worked with a couple, like a handful, but it is a really challenging one. And you know, I can tell you how I've worked on it with a couple people. But I think most people that. Yeah, so most people come to me too, you know, like it was more a little bit of self development. Yeah. But that said. Okay, so let's say caregiving led number one is when they come to me, I always like to know, are we at the very end financially? Like, do you have the space to give yourself two or three months of a real break? Like, let's assume the caregiving has been managed.

Katrina McGhee [00:48:34]:
Can we create a pocket for you to really get that decompressed rest? Because I mean, caregiving is just, I mean like, that is like an emotional and mental, physical job. It's. You had no break. You just change one job for another. That was also emotionally taxing. But like, can we give a little air time for you so that you come back as your best self into this process? Sometimes the answer is yes. Usually actually the answer is yes, that they can give themselves another two or three months. And so how do we design this pocket of time, like a mini break, to be productive for them, for them specifically.

Katrina McGhee [00:49:05]:
But then also it goes back to the narrative. Right. So, you know, saving someone's life is a valid and a really amazing, admirable thing to do. And so many of the people in that handful that I've talked to, like them being on a break actually saved that person's life. And it's usually a parent, sometimes it's a spouse, but like it's truly a life saving endeavor. And so I feel like if your story is, I'm a very values driven person and I show up fully committed to the things that I value and the things that I've like committed to, I'm 100% in. It's like this is how, how much I demonstrate that like I took time out of my really active career to go save a life for someone I care about because that's how I show up in my life. And now that season has ended and I'm ready to go pour into, you know, an organization with a mission I believe in or a company that's doing something that I really want to be a Part of, but that's just how I show up.

Katrina McGhee [00:50:01]:
And so I think, you know, this demonstrates that the other thing is upskilling. Right. So again, if we've got like a little pocket of time, is there a course, a certification of something that we're taking that's kind of giving you new news, maybe accessing a new network for you and giving you like a little momentum to sort of like come back with something to talk about that is more job specific. But you know, it really does come down to the narrative and your, and your network. For, for anyone in that situation, you're really leaning on the people that know you. Like you had a good experience of you to kind of get the ball rolling. And it doesn't have to be specific to your past colleagues. It can be your dentist, it can be.

Katrina McGhee [00:50:37]:
But people that know you know people. And so you never know who knows people you need to know. So it's just letting people know that you're back on the search and what you're looking for.

Diana Alt [00:50:46]:
I think I, I love all the things that you said. So my favorite piece of genius in that is the question, what's the financial Runway? And I often add the question, what would you do if you didn't have a job at the end of that? Because in the current market, like even for people that are not executives, if you're white collar, average job search can be eight months. Now that includes the people that aren't approaching it strategically. So hopefully anybody you and I are working with are going to be, you know, taking steps to make that go a little bit better, but you're going to be dealing with that anyway. So if you can take four, six, eight weeks just to rest so that you can approach the rest of it with energy, you're going to be better off than if you never rest. And it takes you a year instead of six months or three months or whatever. So I think that's genius. And I, yeah, I talk to people about that all the time because the last thing you want to roll in do is roll into a brand new job totally spent like a run out dish rag.

Diana Alt [00:51:51]:
And that happens quite a bit.

Katrina McGhee [00:51:53]:
And I think having your narrative is a strong way to get your energy back too. Like so many people will say after like doing a sort of like narrative deep dive, they feel empowered by the different story that they can now tell. And it's like that gives them energy too, right? Like it's like, oh my God, instead of this burden I'm carrying, it's like I have a way to talk about it where, like, it feels good to me and I think that helps the momentum as well.

Diana Alt [00:52:15]:
Yeah, I. It's amazing how when I hand someone a narrative about their career arc or any of that, like just their whole energy changes.

Katrina McGhee [00:52:25]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [00:52:26]:
Being able to do that for a person that took a break, whether it was planned or unplanned, like it's a 10x. It's 10x. Yeah. The energy change for them. So I wrote down a lot of things. I keep taking notes. I learned things from my clients. And then I'm like, oh, why is that a note? Oh, because she taught me something.

Diana Alt [00:52:48]:
Tell me a little bit about your. A couple of your favorite client break stories. Some of the ones that maybe seem just out of left field because a lot of people, everybody thinks that their situation is so unusual and they can't do it because in certain reasons. What are some of your favorite break stories to help inspire the listeners?

Katrina McGhee [00:53:14]:
Yeah, I mean, one of them. I love the story so much. She started a non. She co founded a nonprofit that was very successful in New England and really struggled to walk away from it. Like her break was many years overdue because she just felt guilty. I think it was an impossible thing. But she stepped away. She took her career break and pretty quickly like gave herself permission to pour into her interest.

Katrina McGhee [00:53:36]:
So flash forward and her break, she starts an animal sanctuary for aged animals. Like older animals. She becomes a certified equine healer, travels to the uk, meets up with her twin sister, and they both get certified in healing. It's I think of it like Reiki, but it's like healing animals and specifically horses, but. But all animals, like donkeys and all kinds of animals. Dogs with energy. And then she starts offering that as a business. So like she now gets paid for it.

Katrina McGhee [00:54:04]:
And then her and her twin sister came back together and like they're in their 40s, right. They're in their mid-40s, came back together in the last year and basically created their own sort of like patented method. And I think it's called like Twinergy or something. But it's like their own type of healing protocol developed over the last few years. And they go around teaching it and using it and it's like, what, what? Horses were not her thing before. I mean, she loved horses before, but that was not what the nonprofit sounds like.

Diana Alt [00:54:34]:
Her non profit was not in the horse or animal rescue.

Katrina McGhee [00:54:37]:
It was not. It was about food, food security and things like that. It's just like so incredible. I love that story. You know, on a, on a Practical level. I had another client who faced sort of having a spouse that was not on board with her break when she started it. And, and that was really hard. Like he, he wasn't like, you can't do it, but he was like, I don't really believe in this.

Katrina McGhee [00:54:59]:
I don't think this is necessary. And so she was financially obligated to pay her half of all the bills as she had been when she made money. So her break was, was, you know, more expensive than average because she was basically like caretaking half of the household expenses. But she traveled in spurts abroad and had the most amazing adventures. Like she went to so many different places. It was just really wonderful to see her kind. I think she went to Bulgaria, she was just traveling all over. But she came back as a brighter, happier, more radiant version of herself.

Katrina McGhee [00:55:30]:
Even like three months in and about four months. Four month, four. Her husband was like, I get it now, but I get it. And he was basically like, you know, a little later on he's like, don't worry about the household expenses for the stuff you're doing, but like, I've got this. I want you to be able to be on this break for as long as you need to be. And she ended up being on a 15 month break and she came back to corporate. So similar to you when you're talking about wanting to be different but coming back to the same circumstance, but feeling completely different. She came back to corporate, she came back to marketing, but.

Katrina McGhee [00:56:02]:
And like not a wildly different industry but like who she was was so different than the version of her before the break that she's had a really different experience. And within her first several months it was with it definitely within her first year she was tapped to be the president of the women's network of this big global company for her city because she just like shown she was just like a diamond sparkling in ways that she never sparkled at her work before this. And so like those are just like two examples. I have so many. I could do a whole like 14 hours.

Diana Alt [00:56:35]:
I'm sure you could.

Katrina McGhee [00:56:36]:
Well, that's really amazing.

Diana Alt [00:56:37]:
Go follow you. Which I put up on the. For people watching instead of listening, I put up. Katrina has a community called the Breakspace community. The website for it is gobrakespace.com so definitely go and check that out. Tell people a little bit about the breakspace and then I'm going to go into some kind of lightning ish round questions that I asked to everybody before we close. So yeah, give us a second BreakSpace.

Katrina McGhee [00:57:05]:
Yeah, BreakSpace is like pride and joy over here. So I do private coaching, but a year ago, I joined forces with another amazing coach, Lindell Farley, who is a sabbatical coach, and she was the technical editor of Taking a Career Break for Dummies, which is where we got to really work together.

Diana Alt [00:57:21]:
Okay.

Katrina McGhee [00:57:22]:
Yep, we joined force. We decided after that a project went so well, the book was so amazing, we decided to join forces again, and we created Breakspace. We've served over a hundred members. It's a global community. We have members all over the world, and it's everywhere from considering a break and being afraid or on the fence to people that are returning from a break. But we're just able to serve people in a really accessible way and reach a lot more people in a way. We can also pour that gasoline of community. So sitting in a zoom and seeing other people that are in your exact same situation and not feeling alone.

Katrina McGhee [00:57:56]:
So we're really here for the movement. Right? Like, I think in different ways. You know, my book, my podcast, the work I've done with my over 100 pilot clients, and then the community in so many ways. I'm trying to pull these different levers to really pour gasoline on this movement so that breaks become normalized in a big way. And there's, you know, people don't feel like they can't take one when they need it or they want it. They're like, yeah, no, people take breaks. It's normal. And that's really what I'm going for.

Diana Alt [00:58:21]:
Cool. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. I think it's. I think it's a fascinating thing. There's so many layers to it. Real quick, before I move on, though, like, what is the difference between a sabbatical and a career break? Yeah, I think that's a big question. A lot of people have.

Katrina McGhee [00:58:38]:
It is. So it's not like a formally defined thing where people will adhere to one definition. People sort of use this term interchangeably. But, like, technically, sabbatical being a leave of absence offered through your work for just doing whatever it is that you want to do. Right. So I think of sabbaticals as company sponsored. Whether they're paying for you to do it, it's paid or unpaid. It's like they're basically giving you permission to leave, and you know what you're coming back to versus a career break, which is like, I'm taking this time off, and I'm quitting the job that I have and what I go to at the end of my Break is sort of unknown.

Katrina McGhee [00:59:11]:
There's more risk in that, but I think there's also a lot more freedom. And so those are, like, the two ways I think of breaks.

Diana Alt [00:59:17]:
Okay, well, thanks for that. And now on to one of my favorite, very favorite questions, which is, what is the worst piece of career advice you've ever received? Everyone laughs at that question. It's one of my faves.

Katrina McGhee [00:59:33]:
So, yeah, I mean, because I've had so many snippets here and there, but I'm actually going to say it's very adjacent to this or very related to this topic. It was from a recruiter. It was from a recruiter who hunted me down in the middle of my break to like. To, like, pitch working with me. And I was like, no, no, I'm. I'm taking at least a year off. I'll come back to you. She's like, great, do that.

Katrina McGhee [00:59:52]:
And I came back to her, and the worst piece of career advice she gave me was, listen, you've got great experience, you've got a good resume, but you've just been on a break. That's a big red flag. And I want you to mentally prepare that you will have to take a demotion, most likely, and a pay decrease for whatever job happens next. But know that if you work hard over the next three to five years, you can sort of make that up. So it's not forever. But I need you to understand and accept that if we're going to work together so that, like, you can be prepared for what you're going to get.

Diana Alt [01:00:29]:
Yuck.

Katrina McGhee [01:00:30]:
Like a thousand person. I could not contain myself.

Diana Alt [01:00:34]:
What you're telling me is that you don't know how to understand someone's value. Ms. Recruiter, you're probably not a very good recruiter is my thought.

Katrina McGhee [01:00:42]:
Right, yeah, agreed. We'll never know, because I did not work with her, but I basically told her, I'm sorry you see it that way. I actually think my break was incredibly valuable. And then, boom, five weeks later, job offer, dream job, career change, 30% raise. Like, I proved her wrong, but it was really terrible advice. And if it was anyone other than me talking to that woman, because I was so. I had so much crazy belief in what I was doing, but if it was anyone else, they would have just been like, okay, and then. And then what? Like, where would they be? You know what I mean?

Diana Alt [01:01:11]:
I left a job. Well, I had a situation in 2012 where I was gonna leave a job, but then I ended up getting laid off. Like, I was burned out And I was gonna leave and I. Did I have a plan? No, but I. I didn't know you then. So I ended up actually getting laid off six weeks before. I had said in my head I was giving notice. So that was kind of a win, actually.

Diana Alt [01:01:34]:
I don't think anybody had ever seen a person quite so happy to get Lego. I get pay and health insurance for a few months and I don't have to come here anymore. Okay, I'm sure.

Katrina McGhee [01:01:45]:
Yeah, let's do it.

Diana Alt [01:01:46]:
Yeah. But I got told by people that I was going to have to take a pay cut and I could plan on not being able to be in product management because I would. Had been promoted into it and like all this stuff. And I basically got for my. I took six months off. Five, six months off. I started looking about three months in. I needed to decompress for three months and I ended up making like 14% more on my next job.

Diana Alt [01:02:15]:
And I found it through networking. The position was created for me, like the whole nine yards. And so, yeah, I'm with you. On. People tell themselves stories and recruiters tell themselves stories. What do you think is a personal habit, though, that has helped you be successful? Yeah.

Katrina McGhee [01:02:33]:
Oh, I am a. I am incredibly, incredibly optimistic as a person. And I. I feel like that's just an innate part of my personality. On the strengths. Binder positivity is one of my top five strengths. But I think it gives me this resilience to, like, keep trying to create the life that I want. Right.

Katrina McGhee [01:02:51]:
That's how this break happened, is because I was like, relentlessly positive. And I actually just did this the other day because I just turned 46 and I had a birthday and I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, let me think about. Yeah, like, what is 46 going to be? And I get really serious when I have a vision and a goal of breaking it down into steps and making those concrete. So, like, I now have a bunch of things on my calendar. Like, one of my things is, like, not eating lunch in front of screens anymore. And it's really hard to do. So I have a little 20 minute lunch.

Katrina McGhee [01:03:21]:
Because 20 minutes in that front of a screen is better, you know, than 40 minutes in front of a screen. And so it's like little things like that. But I feel like I'm very good at taking action, like being relentlessly positive about what I want to create and then breaking that sort of goal down into concrete steps so that I can, like, take very practical steps. Which, spoiler, that's exactly how I saved $40,000 in 18 months, you know, for a break so that I could quit. So I think that's one of my like strengths for success and I apply it through different lenses. Personally, I've achieved a lot and then, you know, professionally as well. But I lost like £25 this year because last year's me in November signed up for a fitness program and was like, this is how I'm gonna make time for this. Even though I'm a digital nomad and that's really hard and perimenopause sucks and you know, I did it and so that's ending and now I've got new goals for like my well being.

Katrina McGhee [01:04:08]:
But. But yeah, I just feel like really I have. That's a skill.

Diana Alt [01:04:13]:
That skill of breaking things down is really important, especially I know a lot of people that are analytical and they can break it all down. They have trouble sequencing it and figuring out what is the most important. And it sounds like you've got that nailed too. What is something that you have changed your mind about or rethought recently?

Katrina McGhee [01:04:33]:
Does this have to be professional or can it be.

Diana Alt [01:04:35]:
No. So work should feel good, but it's so your work and life can work together.

Katrina McGhee [01:04:39]:
Okay. Yeah, I have, I am shifting. Well, it's sort of like a dual thing, but I'm shifting my mind on being a nomad and having a landing pad versus establishing a home base because I've been a digital nomad for eight and a half years. Almost like eight years. Yeah, it is a long time. Pre Covid time. So yeah, so I'm like, okay. I'm feeling like the home base might actually be happening this year.

Katrina McGhee [01:05:07]:
And I've taken. That was part of the steps for 46 that I was taking to like break it down into more concrete baby steps. And the other thing is starting to like change my mind on finding a partner because I think for the last two years I've been like, no thanks. Like, I like my piece. I still love my piece. But I feel like, you know, I'm like, okay. I feel like I've recovered from some past experiences and I'm like, okay. I feel like maybe this actually could be a good thing.

Katrina McGhee [01:05:33]:
I'm starting to like, pay more attention to positive role models and examples, which I think is what we have to do for anything, right? Like, if it's finding a job. Paying attention to people who are getting jobs is going to make you feel better than paying attention to people.

Diana Alt [01:05:43]:
We're not going to pay attention to the people whining about not having a job on LinkedIn, so.

Katrina McGhee [01:05:47]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:05:49]:
Well, that. Those are great. I love them. Have you got any cities in mind for home bases? What are some of your cities that you're considering?

Katrina McGhee [01:05:58]:
Yeah. So at the top of the list, Charlotte is on there. Richmond is sort of like second. Charlotte's kind of at the top right now. I have to check it out a little bit more for a living. I've been there many times, but Richmond is on the list, and that's like, another consideration. Pittsburgh is sort of like, maybe third tier, but I want to be in driving distance of my family in West Virginia because my niece is a senior in high school and my little sister's 14. And it's like, they're going to be like, adults soon.

Katrina McGhee [01:06:24]:
So I like being able to come back for, like, dance recitals and prom and things like that.

Diana Alt [01:06:27]:
It is nice to be able to do that. So.

Katrina McGhee [01:06:29]:
Yeah.

Diana Alt [01:06:30]:
Well, thank you so much for coming, Katrina. I just love talking to you about this stuff. I think that it needs more airplay. I'm really glad that you have the book and the break space now to make it accessible for people that. Because that's a big consideration. Like, if I'm planning to take a year off work, I don't want to spend a zillion dollars to figure out how to do it. So thanks for creating resources that are also accessible and, you know, we'll see you another time.

Katrina McGhee [01:07:01]:
Can't wait. Yeah.